Adventure Travel with Peter Bergman - Beyond Expedition Consulting

Guest Bio

Peter Bergman is an Australian expedition leader and the founder of Beyond Expedition Consulting. With nearly a decade of experience guiding expeditions across diverse and remote regions including Antarctica, the Arctic, and the Indo-Pacific, Peter has developed a broad expertise in expedition cruising. His career began with Silversea Expeditions, where he advanced from Staff Assistant to Expedition Leader, managing complex operations and ensuring guest safety on challenging itineraries. Through Beyond Expedition Consulting, Peter provides specialized advice to expedition operators, drawing on current, hands-on experience in the field to support companies in delivering safe and authentic adventure travel experiences.

Show Summary

In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Peter Bergman about his journey from studying marine science to becoming an expedition leader and founder of Beyond Expedition Consulting. Peter shares insights into the expedition industry, explaining what expedition tourism entails and how it differs from traditional travel. He highlights the challenges of operating in remote regions, from polar areas to tropical islands, and the importance of thorough planning and local knowledge.

Peter discusses the balance he seeks between his career at sea and life on land, as well as the personal challenges of leading expeditions in high-stress environments. He reflects on the legacy of his late father and how it shaped his adventurous path. The conversation delves into the evolving nature of expedition travel, the role of consulting in supporting new and established operators, and the need for mental and physical wellbeing among expedition staff.

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 1:05

Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the Adventure Traveler. So happy to have each and every one of you back today. I'm also very excited we've got a very interesting guest. We've got Peter Bergman. Peter is an expedition leader and founder of Beyond Expedition Consulting. Peter, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Thanks, Jason. Great to be on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

It's gonna be a lot of fun. I I spoke with you uh it was only a week or so ago and was pretty intrigued with some of the stuff you've done in the past and and you offer what might not seem unique to you, but it seems unique to me that you're you're working with companies to help them improve their programs. So we're gonna get into that a little bit. Let's let's actually start there. Well, no, no, let's not start there. Your accent is a little different than mine, and through the power of technology, we're able to connect from anywhere in the world. So let's let's tell our listeners real quick, where are you right now?

SPEAKER_01 1:55

So I'm in Sydney in Australia, and uh it's actually middle of winter, so probably not the idyllic uh Australian day by the beach. It's raining outside, but it's quite a nice one to to be inside here and hanging out for some warmer weather to come.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

So when you say winter, and I'm thinking Sydney, I've not been there that time of year, but you mentioned rain. Is it what is it like really cold or is it just not as nice as it is in the summer? What what are we talking about?

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Oh, it's it's not too bad here. I'd say it's a mild winter, so you can still go outside. It's just a little bit wet. It's not really stopping me from getting in for a swim down at the ocean, which is still quite nice. Uh water temperatures about 18, 19 Celsius, and it's yeah, probably about the same air temperature through the winter as well. It's just shorter days, uh, but it's it's still nice. I I I do actually enjoy all times of the year here.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Cool. We're gonna get into your past and kind of how you've bounced around and and how you ended up there in Sydney. But before we do that, I also want to give our listeners a real clear idea of what exactly it is that you do with Beyond Expedition Consulting. Without going into how you got there, like what service do you offer to your clients?

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yeah, sure. So I guess with the consulting side of things, before I got into the expedition industry, I did work for an environmental consultant. And that was my first professional job outside of uni. So I do have a background in the consulting, which I guess uh broadly speaking is kind of offering specialist services, specialist advice to uh operators, external companies. And I saw a real opportunity for that in the expedition industry as well, because you know, it is a very niche uh product that companies offer, and it can be quite difficult to come across people with experience in particular parts of the world. And you know, if you can have as much of that intel uh before actually, you know, taking guests for that experience, then it really helps to create a stronger product uh leading up to it, and I guess more confidence in the areas that you're going to as well. So that was kind of the idea behind it, simply from feeling as though I had a lot that I could offer in that space from my time having you know worked in the field in expeditions and with the way that the expedition industry is going, there's just so much growth and a lot of new companies coming online that I I saw an opportunity. So I'm really just trying to, you know, I guess network and and and get my name and my brand to different companies and see what happens with that.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Very cool. Peter, if you were down at the beach or just out for a beer or something there in Sydney and you bumped into somebody and they said, What do you do? And you said, Well, I I'm an expedition consultant. They're probably gonna have no idea what that means. So let's start with the ex I think the consult part of it people kind of pick up on, but when you say the expedition industry or expedition tourism, in kind of your own mind or in your own words, what is expedition tourism or the expedition industry?

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Yeah, sure. And and you're right, it is uh one of those titles that you you tell the majority of people you speak to and they they're not quite sure whether you're in research or tourism. It always sounds cool from the start, but yeah, exactly. So uh I would say when when we refer to an expedition, it's usually more of an adventurous way of traveling to remote parts of the world. And that can be land-based, that can be ship-based. And my experience is actually limited to ship-based expedition cruising, we'd call it. And when you think about it, because a lot of these places that we go to are remote and there's not a lot of infrastructure, especially tourism infrastructure, it does make sense for you to travel there by ship or by the coast, because you can essentially you know take everything with you and and and you move to these different parts of the coastline of the of the country where there might not be airports or roads or piers, and you can essentially you know access that that part of the world. So for me, I'd say, yeah, expedition is taking guests, taking tourists to go see remote, hard-to-access parts of the world. And you know, within that, there's a a whole range of ways you can go about it.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

I imagine, just as I listen to you say that, I imagine that like I'd say, oh, so what I hear you saying is an expedition is maybe I'm filling in some gaps here, but I feel like an expedition is where you go somewhere and you take everything you need with you, in a sense. Whether that's well, you have the ship, yeah. Whether that's the ship, or that means tents, or that means some sort of you know, vehicle that that you're traveling uh overland or something like that, but you're not staying in fixed locations, fixed hotels, and and maybe organized campgrounds and stuff like that. Is that a fair way to kind of summarize what an expedition is, or am I missing something big?

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Look, I would say it kind of depends which way you're looking at it. So if you're if you're a a guest who is going on an expedition, you would essentially expect to be you know starting in in one place and finishing in another place. And there's not going to be too much in terms of resupply or facilities in between. Now, when you join a ship to go on an expedition, then everything you need is going to be on the ship, and it would be the responsibility of the crew of the ship to have everything supplied in advance that they need because the the ship would be going to places where it can't bunker again, it can't resupply with fresh produce or you know what it what it needs to be able to complete the the expedition safely. And land-based would probably be more small groups that would be taking things like their own accommodation, or you might be staying in remote shelters or huts along the way from one starting point to an end. So it's essentially an adventure and what people would look to come away from feeling like they've gone to places that not many others have had the chance to go to. And it's taken some planning and effort to get there.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

All right. Very cool. I think that kind of helps me get my head around it. And hopefully, our listeners that aren't familiar with kind of the expedition part of the industry, I would just I guess it's just like a serious adventure. Like we've got, you know, this is the adventure travel podcast, and for some people, adventure might be eating street food in Bangkok, you know. And I get that. I I I personally I love that type of adventure. But what what we're what you're talking about is something a few more moving parts probably than than what the the typical adventurous traveler might experience. You you mentioned working with there's a lot of new expedition companies and outfits kind of coming on board, and you talked about kind of helping them get their their systems and everything kind of in place and before they start bringing guests. Would you say, so your ideal client is is a company that's never taken a guest, helping them get up and running, or do you work with uh existing companies that have been out there for a while that want to change things up, um, you know, bring you in, like give me kind of an idea. I think the helping an operation launch is kind of a little self-explanatory, but those companies that are already up and running, what type of things might they ask you to come in and consult on?

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Yeah, sure. So when you think of expedition destinations, there's the kind of big ticket items, which would be the polar regions, and that's Antarctica, that is up in the Arctic, Greenland, Norway, Svelbard, Iceland, the Canadian Arctic, and and these places would be kind of the forte of expedition cruising. And you you would assume most companies that are coming in to operate into that area can and and should have good solid information about how to make the operation safe and where to take people and what you're trying to see there. So uh from my perspective, that isn't all there is to seeing the world on expedition. There's you know the whole rest of the world that is starting to open up as well, and these are tropical regions and subtropical regions and places where these ships might be spending three or four months down in Antarctica and then three or four months in the north. But you know, you have the other third of the year where the ships can go and explore, and that might be the South Pacific, it might be the Indian Ocean, West Coast, East Coast, Africa. So I would say where I would feel like the the most practical advice and and maybe uh assisting companies with going to these newer regions where there's not so much previous track records, and you know that the the whole operations are different as well. You're not necessarily taking people onto onto ice or you know, zodiac cruising around glaciers and icebergs. You're you're going to these beaches where there's some you know tiny remote cultures in the middle of the Pacific on a small island. And whether you've got 40 people or maybe you've got 300 people, you you really need to think about how you want to have the guests experience that opportunity because nobody really wants to be on a tiny island surrounded by 300 other, you know, tourists at the same time. And it it it it takes away from the it takes away from the. Well, exactly. Yeah. It's uh, you know, we want we want a sense of authenticity and that you you're going to places that that not many others have been to. So there's there's there's a thousand ways you could you could go about it. But I think what would be my my opinion is that it shouldn't really be trial and error in these places. You should go and you should be really confident in the in the product and your operation plan and your itinerary before you go there and you, you know, have your have your guests, your clients who are experiencing that. And well, the the there's not a lot of people out there who have been to these places, and you know, the fact that I have would be a a big advantage to companies who are looking to go there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

I would think so. So what is this like the practical part of it is like is this all done with operations managers of these companies on Zoom calls, or do they actually bring you out and you spend six months with them? Is uh is it a mix of that? Give me an idea of what the job actually looks like. Because is it something you could just do remotely from anywhere, or does it require you actually spending time with the teams and in these locations?

SPEAKER_01 12:41

So again, could could kind of go either way. For the most part, my consulting has been done remotely. So it would be from having conversations and I guess, you know, identifying a problem and finding a solution for it ahead of time. We are lucky the fact that you know we we can generally go ahead and plan and get information in advance of the the ship actually being there. So you can look into things like uh you know what what the tides are going to be like, what the time of season is as well. The you know that there's there's certain things that a customer might see and think, well, when I go there, I want to do that, but it can be highly seasonal. So you know, you wouldn't really you wouldn't really necessarily advocate that you're going to have this perfect itinerary where where everything goes to plan. If you're there in the wrong time of season, it it it might be the you know the the monsoon season or um it might be inaccessible be because of certain reasons. So that's all all these things that can be figured out in advance, they really help with the the finished product that that you deliver as well. So yeah, to answer your question for the most part, mostly remote consulting, but not limited to that, you know, if if the opportunity were to come up where it would be to come and experience an expedition product or see the you know guest flow from being on the ship to getting off the ship on the zodiacs to going ashore and how things work with you know different activities that are offered as well, giving uh advice and and feedback and suggestions around that as well, which would be more practical, I guess, joining joining the expedition and yeah, then post post that providing uh consulting on it.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

It's probably not a great analogy, but bear with me, an event planner. Like an event planner might do a lot of stuff remotely before an event to get everything set up, to work with their clients, to figure out what they need, the the catering, the the transfers, all this stuff, and then the company might say, okay, but we want you there when it happens, so it's things go sideways. There's a couple reasons. One is because you're gonna have to be there to deal with it, but also you're gonna be there to deal with it because if this is a plan you help them put together, you have a certain level of expertise that maybe the ship crew doesn't have. And so I could see a scenario where spend six months coming up with this new itinerary, these new these new destinations or or plans, and then having you go along just to kind of make sure things work the way they were supposed to.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

So hey, yeah, uh and I'd love to do it. Yeah, all right. I'd love to do it. Yeah, there's uh very cool. You know, that there's expedition teams on board, and you know that that that that is the forte of the expedition team because you know you're not just planning for the next day the day before. There is months and and sometimes years involved in you know, finessing what the idea of of that day may be. Have a great day, it's successful, and then you're straight on to the next one. There's no stopping and patting yourself on the back. You know, you you have to kind of keep going, and it it can be quite intense. But yeah, I mean I still love going on ships and working as part of the expedition team and being an expedition leader. So that is uh something that I'll continue to do and you know, also uh try and create opportunities for when I'm not away in the field to be able to, you know, also stay connected with the industry and and up identify opportunities as well, short side.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Now, I also recognize if we just look at the name of your business, okay, beyond expedition consulting, that could mean two very different things. One could be you're consulting with companies that are running expeditions, but then somebody also could like they could even go in and Google, I want to go on an expedition and I need somebody to help me set it up or help me choose the right one. So there's that side of it, more that travel planner or that also consultants that help people find the right expeditions. And I I just wanted to bring that up just for clarity. Is that something you do, could do, would do, want to do, or is that something that's just the the complete opposite side of the spectrum view?

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Yeah, sure. So I would say that is something I could do and something that I would look to do in the future. There's a there's a couple of ways to look at this because there is a lot of readily available information out there. And expedition cruising is a real buzzword in in travel at the moment, and people want to go to places like Antarctica, and you can find really good information quite easily on that. So I don't really feel like my place is to go to somebody and say, hey, if you want to go to Antarctica, here's a secret where nobody knows, you know, you should go with this company, not this company. It can be very dependable on their budget, on their style of travel, whether they want luxury, ultra luxury, something more mid-range, how long you want to go for. And look, I I I would happily give my opinion on that a thousand times over, but I also think it's not really me.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

It's nice, it's not really me who has it has a sweet spot for that.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

However, there there's different degrees of that. You might have somebody who has a really uh big dream that they want to go to a place uh, you know, somewhere they've seen. Let's keep using Antarctica, for example. Uh, but you know what, maybe maybe going on a an expedition ship with uh, you know, two, three hundred others isn't really their their style. Maybe they're in quite a fortunate position that they can be a bit more selective about, you know, that they want to travel luxury but discreet. There's a lot of interesting things happening in that space as well, where you know it it's probably slanted more towards ultra-high net worth individuals and and and people and companies, but that information can be more difficult to come by. And and these people would put a lot of trust in someone to say we want this experience and we are willing to, you know, take your advice on how to make that work. And yeah, it in that regards, I'd say now that I've been involved in the industry a bit more, I'd say, okay, for you, I kind of know I know what you're looking for. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

What I hear you saying is for the listener out there that's listening to this that has enough money to charter a yacht and cruise around the South Pacific and visit these remote atolls with their family, private thing for a month or two, then you're perfectly willing to have a conversation with them.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And it it's happening, you know, it's happening all the time with with with these uh these kind of you know remote places that a lot a lot of a lot of these people would have already been to, or maybe they've been to Antarctica, you know, they've been to a lot of places and they they kind of think now I want experiences, I want to keep collecting experiences rather than go here, which where where I've been to. But yeah, you know, I think the the expedition industry and the expedition ships, they're they're there there's huge sales teams with companies and that you know they do they do a fantastic job and all the information there and and and the brochures are there as well. But look, if I if I feel like I can offer an angle that is a result of having actually been on an expedition ship and worked as an expedition leader and and seen some different products, that that is something that you know I I'd be confident to offer advice on.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

And I I expect that somebody that owns a yacht that wants to go somewhere totally new might benefit from some of that consulting as as well. Um that you know they've they've got the boat, they've got a cre they need some help with the ins and outs, and they they they can't just call somebody that books expedition trips to Antarctica and get that to that level of service. So it sounds like you might be a good fit for that that type of scenario as well, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah, and you know, gone are the days where you can really just take a yacht into a into a country and sail it to an island and you know, expect that you can go ashore if it's a remote community. Um, these things should be done properly, and you know, you do need to the there's many countries that spring to mind with this, but you know, you almost do need to have that kind of middleman role of of somebody that is able to make the connection because it's not a matter of getting to a place, it's a matter of being invited invited in to a community, that's a big difference.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Yeah, that's a long that's a long way to take your yacht, and then you get there and nobody wants to see you, and well, you didn't you didn't fill out the paperwork at the island a thousand miles back, so you need to turn around and go back and and fill out the paperwork, and yeah, that's it would have happened for sure. Yeah, and uh Yeah, I've lived I've lived in the third world. I lived in I lived in the Caribbean for a while, which is not not nearly as complicated as some of these places you're discussing, but I also recognize that things don't always happen the way you think they should happen, and it's good to have somebody that can kind of navigate. I get that. Let's uh let's get into your history, let's figure out how the heck you got there, because I know you had a bunch of experiences along the way. Let's go back to are you Aussie originally? Are you from Australia? I guess that's the first question. Were you born in Australia? Where were you born? What day?

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Yeah, born and bred morning and bred Aussie.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

All right.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Morning, actually, up in a up in Queensland, I was I was born, so had a quite an adventurous childhood. Moved around quite a lot with my parents and my brothers, and I think uh went to five different primary schools, so I kind of changed school every year. And oh what was but it was an amazing childhood.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

What was behind the moving?

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Mostly my dad. He uh he loved he was adventurous, he loved uh to be in the northern parts of Australia, which we call the top end. So this is Northern Territory, this is the Kimberley, up around Cape York in Queensland. And he actually grew up here in Sydney, but when he got to his his 30s and started to, you know, want to just get away from from the city and and travel and camp and fish, he He went up there and he he took my mom with him and then they had us three boys when when we were quite young. Sorry, when when they were uh up there as well. So we were quite young moving around as a result of that and had a few different jobs. Uh but when you're young, you know, you you just think that's what everybody had when they when they grew up, and we were in these tiny little schools, or we we go uh you know to these really remote parts of Australia camping and yeah, really appreciate that now that I can look back on it.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Yeah. Was there a could you put a finger on like his industry if I said what did your dad do other than move around and enjoy life and and have various jobs? Was there a particular type of work that he specialized in?

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Yeah, so he worked for an organization that would assist indigenous communities in terms of uh getting some business infrastructure and you know, various ways that they can generate income into the community, whether that's selling artworks or whether that's uh you know kind of having people come and visit the communities. These these are really remote parts of Australia which you often need permits to enter. And we would be, you know, in these small regional towns, which would be the biggest place nearby with facilities, and then he'd go off into these, you know, really remote indigenous communities, which could be two or three days' drive away. So yeah, we were just young kids who jump in the back of the car and head off and go on some of these adventures with him.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

That's very cool. So you it sounds like you had the opportunity to maybe mix in with some of these indigenous communities a bit as well, or was that was that part of it?

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Yeah. Yeah, we've got some awesome photos from when we were young, just little blonde-haired kids, you know, in these in these communities and kind of walking around in our in our nappies and catching lizards and frogs and all that fun stuff.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Was it unusual for the kids in these communities? Was it unusual to see, you know, the blonde kids with lighter skin that that didn't grow up in their same communities? Was that unusual or were they welcoming? What was that? What are your recollection uh recollections of what that was like to show up in these little towns and communities?

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Yeah, the remote communities, definitely. I mean, you would have you would have uh you know small communities and and then there would be uh you know doctors and teachers and nurses and uh people in similar positions to my dad coming into the communities. But I'm sure I'm sure we were a bit of a novelty to a little little blonde-haired kids running around. And and and even in the smaller kind of regional towns that we uh lived in, you know, there were there was still uh opportunity to, you know, we we played sports and we went fishing and you know, did things and went to school with uh, you know, in indigenous kids as well. So I think uh probably from a really young age and and through my dad would have a good you know interest and and and I guess some early knowledge in how unique and how how amazing the Australian indigenous culture is. So yeah, that's that's been quite cool to now go back to these places a bit older and uh with work and kind of think, yeah, possibly that's a big reason why I I ended up doing these things.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

I I think so. And and it's not just the Australian indigenous community, it's just the fact that you were exposed. I think, I don't know, you I'm just thinking out loud, that you were exposed to just differences and that that is just so eye-opening. It causes so many people to want to go explore and learn more about the world. I actually, as you were sharing that, I remember my first real experience similar to that, not nearly as cool as yours, but I my brother and I had had the opportunity to travel to Australia when I was 12. He was a year younger, and we were in Conundra, New South Wales. For me, felt pretty remote, like on the other side of the planet from where I grew up. And in this small community, the kids there our age didn't see a lot of people from the US, and especially children from the US, because it was not a touristy area. And the just remember the young girls there were just so fascinated by our accents. And and they just wanted to they wanted to talk to us and they wanted to hear us say their names. So they'd say, say my name again, say my name again. And it was a cool experience for me that I linked back to my desire to travel and explore different cultures because it was the first time that I I'd had an experience like that. I can't imagine going into you know some of these indigenous communities like you were doing when you were young. That's uh that's pretty damn cool. All right. Did you at that time, let's say, roughly what age were you that you remember this this type of thing? Was there a period of time that you felt like was the most adventurous or interesting or you know, as far as age?

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Look, from my earliest memories, three or four years old, up until around about Delta Day. Yeah, been on adventure.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Well, it it it has felt like that sometimes, but I'll be honest, we did have we did have a time around about high school age, so 12 to 17, 18, where we moved down to Victoria, which is in the south of Australia, where my mom is from. And we'd been down there, you know, it was cold and it's cold winters down there, trust me. And we you know knew that was where mum was from. And when it came to high school, we we lived down there. So suddenly things sh that I remember that I remember that dramatic shift where suddenly the days were more, you know, you you go to play sport and you go ride your bike after school, but there wasn't really much else to do. And you know, whereas we had this crazy upbringing where after school we'd kind of run down to our our river just down the road and and fish and catch, you know, catch brim and cook them in the sand. And that was on a Tuesday after school when you're when you're eight. So suddenly when you're a little bit older, and I think, you know, it was probably then where I realized, oh, this this feels a bit more normal existence, and hey, you can stay in one place and at one school and and and make friends.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Did you but did you I'm sure you had mixed feelings, but I guess did you feel like that was at the time, did you feel like that was a good thing to have a little bit more stability? Or did you were you resentful for your parents or whatever choices? We don't have to go too far in the the dynamics, but were you were you resentful when you moved south?

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Not not resentful. I think uh you're still a child, so you're still have you're still having fun, you know. That that was the main thing, and it was it it was probably just consciously or subconsciously noticeably different to childhood, but it didn't completely fall away because my my parents separated and we would go and spend time with my dad. He stayed up there. So you know, it wasn't it wasn't go up there for four days over Christmas. We'd sometimes, you know, I'd I'd get a whole a whole term off school and go go stay with him for three months up there, and maybe he was meant to put me in school, maybe he wasn't, but I I don't remember doing much school up there. But it was, you know, it was it was long, it was uh a long period of time to to still stay in touch with that part of Australia. And I I still get those feelings when I go back there now.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yeah, yeah. If I were if we were to go back in a time machine to when you were, I don't know, fifteen, sixteen, something like that, and I asked you, hey, young Peter, 15-year-old Peter, what do you want to be when you grow up? Do you remember what you would have said?

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Look, I probably couldn't pinpoint it to that age. I I think it shifted around quite a bit, but uh there were there was definitely there was definitely a time where I remember I wanted to be a forensic psychologist. I think I think I was watching too much CSI.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Okay, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

That was kind of the that was kind of the the show, and you know, didn't happen, of course, but that that's something I'd remember probably telling people around that age. And then and then I felt like I wanted to work outdoors. So it was never really a from you know eight years old I wanted to be a marine biologist, but I remember I wanted to not be in an office. That was quite a strong feeling. I'd probably given up on the watching CSI by then as well. And I think I I kind of thought, hey, why can't I go work in a national park or something like a a ranger? Would have been quite cool and probably got as far as looking at that process. But yeah, then as I got towards the end of high school, started talking about what to study at uni, I I I went more that that university pathway into what I do what I studied.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Did so when you mentioned the forensic psychology, CSI. What I think of CSI, like when I think back to the episodes that I'd seen, it actually is very attractive to I think people that end up working in tourism because they're not in office, you know, they're out and about, they're it's about curiosity, discovery, new things. It's like I can see the parallel. I don't know if you ever considered it, but I as I heard you say that, I was like, yeah, that kind of kind of makes sense because every day you wake up and it's something new, right? In a sense. Yeah, true. Yeah, maybe maybe I'm just making making things up. But let's talk about the difference between your parents. Like, if would your father have like if you said, Yeah, I want to work outside, I don't want to be in an office, would your father have been more supportive than your mother, or would it be about the same? Did they have two because your mom was pretty adventurous? She went up north with him and did that for a while. So I'm curious, like, would you get like my for example, my dad was maybe more like your dad. We spent my summers with my dad traveling around, flying balloons, going to Australia, doing these things. And then my mother was the academic who was in school for many years and worked hard and had a path and a plan. And and I remember I went to to uni for about a year and dropped out to go join the army because I wanted adventure. My my dad thought it was pretty cool. My mom was very upset. So I'm curious, like with your parents, was there did they both kind of support you equally and what you wanted to do, or was there some conflict there?

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Yeah, okay. So 100% they both supported me and my plans equally. And we're kind of those parents that were like, hey, as long as you do something you're you're happy with or something you love doing, you can do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

It wasn't it wasn't do this because more like that.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Both of them were like that, yeah. That's cool. All right. My my my dad, he had a father who was the opposite to that, who wanted him to be an accountant and work in an office and you know, have a 40-year career and get a Rolex. And my dad rebelled against that because, you know, he he he didn't want to, I guess, plainly speaking, and and and that's why he went and did what he did and went on a more adventurous route. And yeah, my my mom, I think she was just uh happy if we were happy. So, you know, um that was always probably something I uh at the time, you know, felt very little pressure to to have to rush and make a decision and and change my mind a few times. But yeah, that that is uh you know something I can look back and say, hey, but it probably did have a big bearing on how I I ended up doing what I do as well, because you know, could could have easily been talked into other things, or you know, everybody hears that you'd love to study marine biology and and and do that in unique, but there's no jobs. And I heard that a thousand times and didn't really care or or thought, well, regardless, it's still gonna be a cool thing to study, you know, and you can dive and mark your 30 grand in debt at the end of it without a job. But I'll I'll figure that out as I go.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

There's a few different types of people on the planet. And some of them, when they're eighteen, are not thinking about what are the career prospects. It's just like what sounds fun and cool, and then there's a handful that are just thinking, okay, well, how am I gonna make money doing this? And and they will sit down and research what's the best way to make a bunch of money at 18, you know, and then they'll choose that career path to go be a lawyer or doctor or whatever. And uh Yeah, so it's interesting. So did you end up then going to school for marine biology? It sound it kind of sounds like it, but I don't want to make that assumption.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah, exactly. So I I finished year twelve and then I went across to Perth in Western Australia and studied I studied environmental conservation, conservation biology for the first couple of years. So a Bachelor of Science, and then halfway through that I went and had my first trip overseas. I went to Southeast Asia and started diving in Thailand and Vietnam, Philippines, and I thought, wow, that's actually uh pretty bloody cool going down and learning more about the marine life underwater world. And I was only one step away from taking my conservation biology degree towards marine science. So I I shifted a few things when I got back to uni after that time off, and then I I did my honors in in marine science and started to, I guess, feel like I was studying to be a marine scientist, marine biologist.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Where so you you've got a dad up north, mom down south, and you went all the way to the west for school. It sounds like is that I'm a kid, right? Yeah. That's right. Was there some what was that like when you packed up? And did you drive? Did they did one of them go with you? Well, like what just what do you remember of going off to school as far as dynamics in your family?

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Yeah, okay. I I think about this a bit because I had never been to Western Australia, and it was actually a recommendation from my my careers advisor at school that said B Way has a good university for marine biology. And my brother left home when he was 18 and he he he went up to to Darwin. And I think I kind of wanted to get out of our town where we went to school and and forge my own path. And I had a couple of mates who wanted to do a similar thing. They they weren't going over there to study, but you know, they knew they could find work, and we actually all uh set off one morning. I I remember this quite vividly, and we all had our own car. And you know Australia's a big country, so it takes we drove to Perth, and that's about 3,500 kilometers.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

And it's very it's a very beautiful scenic route, isn't it? I think I just in my mind I imagine it being kind of flat.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

Yeah, flat and dry. Yeah, I mean, I I think everybody should do it once. Once is probably enough. There's a lot of uh there's a lot of country where it's just flat and you you're passing road trains, and it's called the nullabor. So the nullabore is is a treeless plain where you can just see for miles without any vegetation, and it's just kind of a big well, not it not a desert, but it there's just not a lot there.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

And you know, you're 18, so we were we were driving 10, 11 hours a day. I don't even think I I drank coffee back then, so I'm not sure. It was just kind of we were just running on that that youthful energy that we're going to a new place, and I I I would probably do it differently now, you know, all in all in our own car because we all we all wanted our own car. But yeah, our our our moms were kind of there at the side of the road when we left, and we we kind of went around in a convoy and s the four days later arrived in our destination, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Which was your mom visibly upset that you were going so far away?

SPEAKER_01 38:57

I think she knew I was in a room.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

Okay, see ya. And all the moms went and drank a lot drank uh a bottle of wine after you all left, I'm sure. So alright.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Yeah, she's uh yeah, she's kind of used to it. Uh I think I'm the middle I'm the middle boy, so three boys all quite adventurous, and we've all we've all left home, you know, when we could. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

When when did you say decide to take up scuba diving?

SPEAKER_01 39:22

I did that, yeah. So I was uh I was in Thailand. I was on a I was on a you know three or four month trip through through Asia, and everybody who was in Thailand, especially you know, backpack age, would go to a place called Kotao and scuba dive. And uh I definitely had that as as part of my uh intended trail uh as I went, just you know, slowly making my way through Thailand and just kind of took to it, you know. I I loved uh the training, doing the course and learning the theory behind it, and then I guess learning the the biology, oceanography aspects of it as well. And yeah, never really planned to do it more than recreationally, but I knew it went hand in hand with a marine science degree. But that was when I that was where I started, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

And the the trip to Southeast Asia, you said a few, what, three or four months that you were backpacking around?

SPEAKER_01 40:16

I think it was meant to be three. I think it was meant to be three, but it stretched out to about, yeah, five.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

So did you take a whole semester off from school or how did you you didn't manage to squeeze that into a break, or did you do I'm just kind of curious how that all because I think Aussies, Kiwis, some people, even y Europeans, probably more so than Americans, will take some sort of break, a gap year or whatever, and they'll just go back back around Southeast Asia, for example. So I'm just kind of curious how that fit into your life.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Yeah, okay, good question. And I can I can distinctly remember what triggered Southeast Asia in my mind. And well, actually, my my dad passed away when I was in my second year of uni. So that was obviously that was obviously, you know, uh a huge thing to deal with. And I ended up taking a year off uni and I went and worked for six months, saved up a bit of money, and I came across a lonely planet on a you know, Southeast Asia on a shoestring. It's like the how to travel budget in different parts of the world. And I remember flicking through, and I'd probably heard about Thailand and Indonesia and you know a few other places around Southeast Asia, but I didn't really understand that part of the world very well. And I remember just reading that you could stay for three or four Australian dollars at some places, and you know, chicken and rice was fifty cents, and you can get you can get fifty cent beers.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

I thought, hang on, if I've got if I've got this, that's the that's the backpacker, that's the backpacker decision making process right there and the digital nomad, and the digital nomad process, because I'm living that life.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Yeah, let me ask you this. It's probably yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

If if if you would have because the way I heard you describe that was I came across a Lonely Planet Southeast Asia travel book. If you'd happen to run across a Lonely Planet South America or Latin America travel book that said you could do it for the same costs and same prices, do you I guess what I'm asking, were you already do you think you're already kind of inclined to go to Asia, or was it just that's the book, that's the first book you picked up that said you could get fifty cents beers?

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Okay, well, um I guess Australians have a bit of a love affair with Bali.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

So I had heard about I know, I've been to Bali. Everybody there thought I was from Australia just because of the way I look, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Okay, yeah. Yeah, so uh I I knew about that. I hadn't been there. I hadn't been overseas by this stage. So I was I think I was 19. And it was where I started. So I always wanted to yeah, there was something about there was something about Southeast Asia that really appealed to me. And South America, similar process, kind of something happened, or I heard about it, or I met some people from there, or came across another Lonely Planet book. Um, but Southeast Asia I think is just such a ideal destination for someone, you know, kind of between 18 and 21, where everything's everything's kind of easy, kind of forgiving. You know, you don't need a lot of money to get there or to stay there. And it's uh and when you're there, you know, it's it's suddenly this feeling of uh being completely free in a in in another part of the world that's so different to Australia. So that was that was a big appeal to see somewhere that felt different, like I'd left home.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

And uh and then suddenly your conversations open your open your eyes to well, maybe I can. I didn't know I would go to Cambodia, for example, but everyone was going there and everyone was saying, Oh, you have to go there, it's so different to here. And so I went there and and then up to to Lao. And so yeah, I I still love Southeast Asia, it's one of my favorite parts of the world. Um, and I think a big reason is because I was so I was so immersed while I was there. This was before you could kind of travel with Wi-Fi and scroll on your phones on a bus ride. You you'd have you'd have one book, you'd have you'd have your little uh you know, music player if it worked and if it had battery. Otherwise, you'd just stare out the window on these long bus trips and look at look at people going about their life, and that really resonated with me. You know, it it kind of uh made me curious about how how somebody grew up there compared to where I grew up.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Does do you think there was a point, or do you remember a point where you went from kind of the the marine sciences to somebody that was really going to be traveling and leading expeditions or because I can imagine marine sciences means oh I probably want to travel the world and do marine sciences. I don't know. I I guess I'm curious. Were you th already thinking you would be traveling the world as a marine scientist, or was there some point where you said, you know what, I just really want to go travel and explore I don't know if uh it's not a very clear question, but I'm curious what's coming up for you when I ramble on like Yeah, no, I I get you so

SPEAKER_01 45:04

When I was studying, we would talk about kind of three pathways that you could take out of uni. One of them was to stay in research and keep keep researching. One of them was to get into public domain. So, you know, you might work for the Department of Fisheries, Department of Environment, competitive all of these options are competitive, really. And then the third was more private. So that's what I ended up doing, working for a consultant, probably more office-based, writing reports than I would have liked. And that's what we really spoke about. And you know, I was grateful to have been given an opportunity to work in in consulting, but it wasn't really what I I f foresaw myself, you know, doing for a as a career.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Yeah, because then let me ask you this real quick, Peter, because the three paths you just described on the surface sound, I don't want to say sedentary. Sedentary is not the right word, but location specific. So I imagine doing research, you might be at a university, you're in a lab somewhere all the time. Maybe you're close to the ocean, and maybe you're doing something locally, and fisheries and stuff would probably be tied to a specific region. The consulting private sounds all tied to a specific region. Is that is that kind of right with those three paths?

SPEAKER_01 46:20

Yeah, I'd say for the majority of it, if every position would be location dependent, and maybe you'd get lucky and you know get assignments to go travel and and research in other parts of the world or work in other parts of the world. But for the most part, that that was kind of your line of thinking would be where do I want to live and work.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Okay, and it sounds like you wanted to go a different direction. So let's pick up there. And what did you not like about those three paths and what did you really want to do at that?

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Well, I think I could I could envision a perfect lifestyle around about that age when I was out of uni and I was working, and I could I could see where my pathway was taking me if I just stayed doing what I was doing. And I could also see an opportunity to be able to and travel for travel as a job, really. But mind you, I I listed those three options and I didn't know this at the time, and nobody did. No nobody had heard about working as a marine biologist on an expedition. Expedition job. Right? Yeah, and I swear, I swear if we knew about that, everyone would have just been lining up and you know, get out of my way. I want that job. What do you mean you can travel to a place like Antarctica with this degree I've just earned and get paid, and that's my job now, you know. We w went this was this was 2014, 15 when I when I graduated.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

So the the industry would have definitely, you know, existed, but it would have still been difficult to come across anybody who works in it or uh they weren't probably putting flyers up at the at the university saying come be a biologist on our Antarctica cruises or our cruise to the through the South Pacific. It wasn't actively recruiting on campus for, huh?

SPEAKER_01 48:15

Yeah, exactly. I don't think they needed to actively recruit because you know Yeah, they don't need to as the but how did you figure it out?

SPEAKER_00 48:22

So how did you figure it out?

SPEAKER_01 48:24

Well, it links back quite neatly into my trip to Southeast Asia, in a way, because I took that year off and I left Perth and I did another road trip up to Darwin, and about halfway along that on the WA coast is a place called X-mouth and the Ningaloo Reef. And the Ningaloo Reef is amazing, it's it's almost the the west coast version of Great Barrier Reef, but on the on the west west coast, and that is famous for a number of things, but uh mainly whale sharks come into that reef to feed, only for a few months of the year. And I always knew you could do this tour which took you out to go swim with them. And you know, these are these huge kind of 10 meter plus whale sharks, and I really wanted to do that, so I I did that on the way driving north, and when I was on that boat, I was uh I was on there by myself because the the mate, the couple of mates who I was doing this road trip with, they they didn't want to go out on the boat. So I was kind of just chatting to whoever was on the boat, and I met this one guy, and he was uh a few years older, but he had studied marine biology as well, so we kind of naturally just hit it off, and he was he was working more kind of in ecotourism around that part of the world. And we we swapped details, and I think back then you kind of had someone on Facebook, and you know that that was what you did. So I I had him on I had him on Facebook, but by this stage he he wasn't working in expeditions, but shortly after he started to and he was uh you know on his Facebook profile, suddenly posting these pictures of him in Antarctica, South Georgia with King Penguins, uh up in the Arctic, taking photos of polar bears in Papua New Guinea, and and something obviously clicked, and I thought, okay, this guy, he studied what I studied. We we kind of have kept in touch, and and then I asked him, I I still didn't know exactly what he did. I thought he was maybe a NAT geo photographer and had a bit of a career change. But he said, Yeah, look, I'm in expedition cruising, it's it's kind of new, it's kind of uh booming at the moment, so there's a bit of work around if you're interested. You have the degree for it, kind of have the uh you know the the desire to want to do that as a career, so you'll you'll probably be in a good position to start with. And funnily enough, as as it goes on, I ended up uh working at the same company as him, and we we actually worked together. He was the expedition leader and I was his assistant about two or so years after I started in the industry. We we ended up working together on the same ship. So that was kind of uh kind of sweet how that all came about. And uh yeah, still friends to this day.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Sometimes those connections are pretty damn important, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Yeah, you never know it at the time, but you can look back and think, well, you know, maybe if I decided to go another day or or I didn't go because my mates didn't want to go.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Or you didn't have Facebook or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

Yeah, yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

That's it. Yeah, it's uh it's pretty cool. It's and it's one of the things that I've noticed in a lot of the conversations we have here on the podcast is most people, you know, that I chat with have a moment like that or or somebody that maybe didn't seem like it was making a huge influence at the time, but then it turned out to be that way. But I also want to ask you, if you don't mind, I'd like to ask you it's a little personal, I guess, but part of what also put all these wheels in the motion, actually, it sounds like was your father's passing.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

Yep. And the way you described him earlier as being kind of that type of personality, that type of person that's just gonna go and take risks and take these chances, which obviously had a lot of influence on you. To kind of tie all that together, do you because what I hear is like a legacy. I I kind of hear this legacy thing, and even with the timing of his passing, that really put a lot of wheels into motion for you. And I'm just wondering if this is just what I'm making up in my head or is this something that you've considered as well?

SPEAKER_01 52:24

It's all it's all very connected to the decisions I was making around that age. And you know, it's uh it's that kind of anytime's tragic time to lose a father, of course. But when you're, you know, kind of uh in those real formative years of your life and probably just starting to see yourself as an adult who can have adult conversations with your parents and I guess get their perspective on a similar time to their life, or you start to see them as you know, not not your parents, but people who have had their whole life and can kind of offer so much in terms of uh you know guidance and advice, or you know, especially like a a son to their father. You you want to say, What how did you do this? Like how did you kind of process uh this situation? Or uh you know, I'd have a thousand questions now. I I I'd love that opportunity to ask. But the the thing for me is I was obviously grieving and a normal existence felt like the opposite thing to do or to keep to keep going about my what I was to keep on the path I was on. It felt like I needed a disruption and a a big one. So for me that was uni's not where I want to be right now. I don't I don't want to be around, you know, I don't want to sit in a classroom, I don't want to, you know, laugh in conversations with people when I don't feel like I, you know, I I didn't I didn't want to be back in in the life I had before he passed away. So I kind of upended everything and and that's when I took that year off to just give myself a chance to, you know, ha have any number of paths that I could take from there. And wasn't really the plan to go overseas, wasn't really the plan to stay in somewhere like Southeast Asia for five months, but um I think you know that that 12 months of time was a good amount for me to be able to first of all go through the the grieving process and and I actually I moved up to Darwin, which is where he lived, and I spent about six months up there working um with my stepmom who was who was with him at the time. So spent spent kind of a lot of time, you know, in his space, not not down in Perth, away from everyone. So I I felt like I was up there and and I was where he would have been. And then I kind of got through that, or well, you know, as much as a a young man probably thinks they got through the death of their father. And I was like, okay, I need I need adventure and I need I need a stimulus and I need to I need to be shocked a little bit because everything feels a little bit safe here, you know, in our in our very lovely existence we have in uh a place like Australia. So it would have had a big bearing in the fact that I I chose Southeast Asia and you know went to places where there's a lot of in your face, you know, poverty and just uh as grim as it sounds, probably sadness in in these parts of the world where you're probably powerless to really change anything, but it almost uh it almost broadens your perception of how how the world really is. And yeah, maybe that was maybe I just had a big capacity for for something like that because you know I'd felt this this pain from his death that suddenly, you know, it was like, oh, okay, well, life's just not a little rose-colored journey you go on, it's it's it's all these other bigger things that are actually what what's really important. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:05

No, yeah. I I mean, uh obviously given the choice, you I I know, I trust that you would have so you could still ask him those questions and still connect with him. And sometimes when when something like that happens earlier in life, it gives us an opportunity to kind of have that moment that some people don't get until it's too late. You know, that moment of, okay, life is doesn't last forever. And we've got one chance to fill it with what we need to fill it with. And sometimes when we have a loss early a little earlier on, it gives us a little bit more of that like, okay, I'm not invincible because or you're like me that didn't really have any major losses until I was, you know, in my, I'd say my mid-40s when I got divorced. I was just thought I was invincible. I still kind of think I'm invincible. But my parents are still alive, so I haven't had to deal with that yet. And yeah, it's uh it's when we see people that, you know, go through divorces and then all of a sudden they sell all their stuff and go start traveling or they change careers or they they realize that, hey, I'm gonna do something here. And it sounds like maybe you had that opportunity at a let's say an opportune time, but it sounds like maybe you had a little bit of that experience that not all of us get. Fortunately, I mean it's not a pleasant experience, but did you have a chance to chat with him before his passing? Uh, just curious, was there, you know, did you have kind of those those moments of you know advice, encouragement, or was it more unexpected?

SPEAKER_01 57:32

Look, it was um yeah, kind of both of those things because we we knew he was unwell, but he he got sick very quickly, and then suddenly it was phone call, you should come up here. We're not sure what's gonna happen. There is a chance that he's not gonna make it. So did get that opportunity to go and be by his by his bedside when he was when he was really unwell, and you know, we we'd had those conversations that he he was dying. And I guess maybe my mind created this thing where it was going, well the opportunity's there to have a chat, so let's have the chat. And kind of uh kind of didn't didn't really, and you know, I I'm not I'm not uh ever going to know exactly you know the reasons why it w it wasn't like a you know sit down and kind of hey son, you know, this is this is life, and you know, I I I think death death's such a personal experience as well. And I'd I'd probably never really know what my my dad was going through at the time as well. I I I do see it as um you know being fortunate to be by his side when he he died, um, because you know, that is when you want to have your loved ones around and you know if there's any if there's anything you can take from it that's slightly positive, it's the fact that we were able to be up there as a family together. Um but yeah in terms of thinking about those questions, you know, I I I now would have moments almost on the daily where I think I'm a similar age to my dad. And you know, he was uh he was 58 when he passed away, and I I distinctly remember being 29 and I felt and I still I still feel pretty young to be honest, but I I still felt so young at 29 and I remember thinking I am I'm at the halfway point of when he died of you know, so it's like if if the same thing happens to me, I'm kind of I've lived over half my life already, and it and it and it just took me took me a lot to get my head around that and and maybe a little bit of a hey, you know what, uh some things aren't some things aren't that important that we spend a lot of time fixated on. And it's really about just living life because it can be taken away unexpectedly or before you think it's your time. So yeah, now I'm now I'm 37, and you know, my dad was 30, 35, 36 when he met my mom, and he took her on this crazy adventure, of course, and she was she was younger. So I you know, I I think of all these things now that would kind of be nice to say, hey dad, I I almost feel like you when you were my age, and I'm sure you were kind of going through similar things that that I am. Uh but yeah, you kind of just you you r recall on the times you did have together, and you know, you you you feel almost like you you were guided through that for your for these times in your life as well. And I've still got my mom, you know, and my mom's like amazing in every way. So she her her and my dad, they separated, but they always had a a really you know, it was it was still a loving relation post relationship, you know, that was still both our mom and dad.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:49

Well, my parents are divorced. I there was no spider. Yeah. Is there is there something in mind if if I asked you, hey Peter, what's the what's the thing that you've accomplished since you lost your dad that you wish you could tell him the most, or the thing that you think that would make him the most proud? What would it be?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:03

Ooh, um there's there's probably one answer to this, which I I'll think of down the trail after this podcast, because I have had moments where I thought my dad would be uh you know proud of me now doing this. Probably there'd be a hundred things.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:20

Probably a bunch of them because because I'm thinking he like if there was a social media that we could post things for our for our family that are no longer with us, it's like, hey dad, I'm I'm in Antarctica. Hey dad, um you know, I'm with polar bears and clients and I'm I'm living this life exploring and fishing, and I don't know if you still fish, if that's a thing or not, but just these things that I can imagine be like, hey dad, look, look, look what I'm doing. Yeah. And as a tribute, not as a bragging, but as a tribute to like, geez, dad, you know, I probably wouldn't be doing these things if it wasn't for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

Yeah, definitely. And the example that comes to mind is, you know, and probably like what I'd consider one of my proudest moments is leading an expedition because you are the face of the expedition product and the face of the team, and I'm not naturally a very uh outgoing or extroverted personality type. The position calls upon me to step into that and you know, be on stage and and I guess be a presence and make big decisions. And I guess there was a real sense of personal pride when I realized that I was doing that, you know, not the fur the first one's always the toughest one and and and the big relief when you do a sick have a successful expedition, but then to repeatedly, you know, prove to yourself and prove to others that you're capable. And yeah, I reckon there'd be a moment where he'd probably see me, you know, in that little fraction of what it is being an expedition leader on stage, kind of presenting the finished product and the team, and kind of I I would think, you know, that that's well done. You know, for getting yourself into that position.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

I love that. As I listen to you share that, I imagine my my son, you know, I've got a 19-year-old son, and I've worked in tourism for a while, I've led not nothing to the lips, and I've you know, kind of been in charge of some things. And so for me to imagine seeing my son Jackson, you know, as an expedition leader on an Antarctica cruise or what or whatever, just like, wow, how freaking cool is that? Because they're always your kid. So when your kid grows up and does stuff like that, it's just like how freaking cool. So I'm sure you'd be very valued. Thank you for sharing that. That was not my plan to to go that deep into things, and I know it wasn't your plan. Um, but I really appreciate you opening up and sharing that because somebody needs to hear these messages, right? Somebody needs to hear these messages, whether it's a father or son or whatever. It's um because we all have regrets, but we also have inspiration and motivation and things that keep us going. So thank you for sharing that. I do want to make sure we don't miss any important steps because kind of where we left off before we, you know, got into the conversation of your father and his legacy was kind of around you mentioned that you had the guy that you met when you were swimming with the whale sharks, and then you worked for a couple of years and ended up working with him. And I want to touch on some of the other highlights that have happened since then to kind of get you to the point where you are now. So I I'm not sure where to pick up on that, but what pops into your mind?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:33

Okay, well, um, look, I was very lucky that the company I first started working for in Expedition Cruising, a company called Silver Sea, uh, they had three ships. And when I looked at their website, you know, they go all over the world. Uh I I forget all the numbers now, but you know, every continent, polar regions, tropical regions. So I I started in the industry and at a company where I didn't really have to ever leave or look for other opportunities. Opportunities came by, and I was probably very fortunate in the fact that I could go to a place like Antarctica, but because I was Australian and my manager knew I grew up in you know the northern parts of Australia, which is actually a an amazing expedition destination in itself, and and Silver Sea goes there in the in the Kimberley. So I was a logical fit to go to the Kimberley, and then you know, you kind of you kind of uh finesse your polar guiding skills and your tropical guiding skills, and you become probably more of a generalist in how you can work on ships. You know, you're not you're not really uh specialized to one particular region or polar versus tropical. So I just it's one of those careers you just you you say yes to everything because you want to, not because uh you know you get your contracts 12-18 months in advance, and they say, well, we want you to fly to Greenland to join the ship here, and then you're going to finish, you know, in in Canada two months later, and then we want you to start the next one in Costa Rica and finish down in Terra del Fuego. And I just I I read and sign it straight away and send it back and like, yep, I'm sure. Like, of course I'll do that. That sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:04

A coup a couple couple things on that, because you mentioned silver, is it silver seas or silver sea?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:10

Silver seas, right? Silver Sea. Silver Sea expeditions, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:13

Okay, yeah, yeah. So what I noticed is when you and I first spoke, I uh had made a mention on LinkedIn that you were gonna be coming out of the show. And all of a sudden I started like making all these connections with people at Silver Sea Expeditions. I just and I noticed like, oh, I think that's connected to Peter. And then people would start saying, Oh yeah, I used to work with Peter. I you know, I worked with him for a while. He's great. I'm so excited to to hear his uh his conversation with you. So I want to mention that in the sense that there's people still there that are really paying attention to what you're doing and and obviously think very highly of you. So that's super exciting for me. I hope that's exciting for you as well. So I'm happy to be. So I heard you use the word cold twice, and it's not lost to me that we're having conversations about places like Greenland and Antarctica and all these places. Do you like the cold? Is that like something you actually like about it? Or I just curious. Like I I know it's part of the job, but do you like it?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:21

I like a balance, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:23

And a balance is a big thing. Yeah, that's that's probably Fahrenheit.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:28

Yeah, okay. Sorry, a balance of extremes. Um I go I go from Antarctica and my next contract will be 35 35 Celsius in in the tropics and you know, swap swap parkers and waterproof gear for board shorts and and sandals. And you know, that that was again back to the the fact that I I kept saying yes to everything because I was getting this amazing balance with my with my uh you know contracts that I was getting, but also the the different activities you get to do on this as well. So I wouldn't say I wouldn't say I necessarily prefer one over the other. I I do think polar regions are the domain of expedition. You know, that's kind of where when we when we talk about the the early explorers, uh famous names who went down and discovered Antarctica and had these harrowing stories of survival, and you know, we we read books about them now and we watch documentaries, or if you're fortunate enough, you go to these places and you see the huts that they overwintered in, and it's it's kind of it's almost the part of the world which is going to ask the most of somebody to come down because that's where it's most challenging, you know, it's uh crazy storms and weather and it's inhospitable. So if you want to feel like you go away and you go on a proper expedition, then you go to the polar regions like that. But in saying that, you know, these days we do it so comfortably on luxury expedition ships, and you can be in a place like that and and see the hut where they where they survived and ate penguin eggs and seal meat, and you know, then you learn about that, and then you'll go back and have a nice hot shower and you know have some wine, a caviar over dinner, and yeah, yeah. Sit it sit in the hot tub. So it's a little bit of a crazy juxtaposition. But let me let me ask you. Yeah, you just have to be. Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:22

Well, I just want to ask uh an example is the polar plunge, which I've um I haven't done it, but I've seen it, I've heard it, I've heard a little bit about it. Which in in my mind, when I say that, maybe I'm saying it wrong, is when the the passengers sometimes have the opportunity to jump into the polar water and then very quickly get back out. Oh yeah. I may I'm not even gonna ask you if you've done it. I'm assuming you've done it, probably a few times, but is that something like is is exhilarating for someone like you, or is are the expedition leaders like, yeah, I've done that, I don't need to do that, I'm just here to supervise, or is it something you actually want to do with the clients?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:59

Well there's two different people, essentially. You you'd be pretty hard pressed to find an expedition leader, expedition guide who hasn't done the polar plunge, because it's kind of a rite of passage, you know. And we would usually try and do one each season, whether that's uh in in in the Antarctic, up in the Arctic, because they're both polar plungers, and even better if you've done both. Some are a bit more crazy in the fact that they'll do it every opportunity they can. Um, you know, I I'll see how I I feel. The reason you do a polar plunge, it's gonna be the best hot shower you've ever had straight after.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:37

Does it hurt though? Does the hot water hurt?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:39

Uh it's a good pain. It's a good pain. It's yeah, yeah, yeah. It's uh yeah, I haven't been on a ship yet that's run out of hot water, so you can have a you know 20-minute hot shower and slowly heat yourself back up. And they're pretty fun about it. You know, there's pump-up music, everybody's in line, kind of dancing and in their robes, ready to do it, and sucking each other up. There's normally the bar team are down there with a bit of liquid courage to help people get over the line and and finally jump. Uh, but yeah, it's mostly fun and it's it's pretty safe.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:07

I think I pretty safe. I think the last video I saw, and maybe I missed it before. I haven't watched a lot of videos of this, but I seem to recall like don't your past your your clients, your guests, like you tie a rope around them, right? So like when they jump in just in case they can't get back to the ladder?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:22

Is that true or am I missing something? No, no, that that tends to be kind of industry standard these days. Everyone who plunges will have gone through a medical assessment, so not everybody who wants to can. You know, you do need a sign like that as a sided waiver. Yeah, it's it's fun until uh you know people kind of think, hmm, maybe I don't have the the ticker, you know, or have i i in a condition medically where they they probably shouldn't expose themselves or something like that. So it's all uh yeah, it's all it's all uh vetoed by by the medical team and you have the ropes on there. People people learn to swim pretty fast um if they don't know how to swim when they uh when they jump in there. But the ropes just a little bit, you know, sometimes there's uh sometimes there's a lot of flapping around, which isn't really getting them closer to where they need to get to. I've so you can give them a little nudge.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:16

Because I've been around enough guides and I've been around enough clients that I I can imagine like you've got clients that all week are moving really slow. And I'm not knocking them, they're on vacation. They can move whatever speed they want to move at. But you've got clients that just seem like, wow, this person moves really slow. They're always the last one to breakfast, they're always the last one to the zodiac or whatever. And then as soon as they jump off the deck, you're like, holy cow, I had no idea that person could move that fast. Is that or I'm just imagining this, but I I suspect you guys are like, now he's moving really fast, or she or whatever, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:50

Yeah, so yeah, it's funny, right? And and sometimes you'll only have one ladder to get back up. So two people jump at a time, and that can create some quite interesting relationship dynamics, especially if the guy the guy forgets that he, you know, husband and wife and then.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:07

He's pushing her away from the ladder as he's climbing out.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:09

Yeah, that's yeah, no, I've seen it all. I've seen it all. And uh you stay you stay out of that. You let them decide.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:15

Do you guys do that on purpose? That kind of sounds like you're asking for trouble. You should not let couples that are traveling like that are married or in a romantic relationship, you should not let them both jump at the same time, would be my my cons my consultation for a new expedition company.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:30

They they should just have the conversation before they jump. So they're both on the same page with who should be getting out first. Well, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:38

You've never been married yet, have you? I can tell.

unknown 1:13:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:44

We haven't even got to that part of the conversation. But I can just tell because you say oh, just discuss it first because I can't I was, you know, people that have been married for a while, or or do even more the ones that are divorced, recognize that you can have all kinds of agreements in the beginning. That that stuff tends to change really quickly when things get hot or cold. So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:04

Yeah. All right, yeah, I'm seeing that.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:06

Enough of that. Peter, uh so so you're working with Silversea, and then kind of what are the kind of the next big we're talking about jumps. Let's say what is the next big jump that kind of moved you closer to where you're at now.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:18

So I got an opportunity as a uh what's called a staff assistant, which is more of an admin role on board. The thing when I first got offered employment with Silversea was you could work as a lecturer, which is you know giving presentations and and guiding, but there was a big backlog of marine biologists who could work as lecturers. So I would have had to wait about 18 months for that contract to come around. And then my manager gave me an opportunity to come on board earlier, and it was to Antarctica as a staff assistant, and you know, kind of a bit of a different role. You're not presenting, you're not giving lectures, um, but you're still part of the team and you're still you know going out there and enjoying everything and you know doing a bit more admin work on the computer in the office. But that opportunity put me really close to the expedition leader in terms of working in the same space and learning about the planning and how things kind of you know really come together on an expedition, not just with the team, but all the other departments. And suddenly I was like, whoa, okay, we don't just drive a boat around and show people penguins. There's this whole other conflicting uh well, you know, working together but conflicting priorities of what needs to happen on a ship for it to be successful. And I got maybe two, three years kind of in that position, a couple of promotions. I'd also worked as a lecturer, a naturalist by that stage, and I got given the question, do you want to work towards becoming an expedition leader? Or would you like to focus more on, you know, being a marine biologist on board and keep that kind of uh career path? And I hadn't worked as an expedition leader, but there was a part of me that felt like I could do it. And, you know, um you hear that not everybody wants to be an expedition leader because there's all these amazing positions you can have when you're not the expedition leader and responsible for everyone and you know the the uh the everything and and kind of the expedition team c the the the connector to all the other departments. But I was up for the challenge and yeah, then a couple of things happened where I had to step into the role before I was ready. I didn't necessarily feel like I could do it at that stage or hadn't had enough experience. I wanted to shadow some more expedition leaders, but it got to a simple point where the expedition leader didn't come. So I was the next one in line, and it wasn't, hey, do you want to step up? It was hey, you are the expedition leader from you know in three days time. And I think that's the kind of the the not so gentle push everybody needs to get to that first step towards working as an expedition leader and being in the position, and then you just you just rely on your training and and what you know, and you you you kind of rely on those around you who are a source of information, and everybody's really kind of supportive because no expedition leader knows everything, and if they think they do, then you know they they don't. So yeah, that was uh that was my transition towards then being uh predominantly an expedition leader, and then that's been four four or five years now I've worked in that role. And that's kind of the that's kind of the top position in an expedition team. Yeah. So I didn't really see it as where do I go to from here. I saw it as I want to, you know, stay in this role, but I also want to, you know, um look after myself in terms of longevity in the industry because it it does really uh put you in situations which can take a toll, you know, high stress, high challenging, you're responsible for the safety of a lot of people. You're also getting pulled in a hundred different directions from you know other managers, other departments who want things done a certain way to help make their life easier as well. And yeah, you you sorry, yeah, you do things well, yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:11

Obvious question that I think everybody wants me to point out, or I don't know if it's a question, but also it's like at some point, because you talked about where your dad was at this age and you know, married, you know, meeting your mom, and like how do you have a relationship as a full-time expedition leader? Honestly, that's where I want to go with this. Because I see that as like that could be a thing that would make people want to kind of look for other picking up on this as well or not.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:37

Uh okay. Well, honestly speaking, there are a lot of successful relationships of expedition staff, and whether that means they are they on a partner, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:49

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:50

I would say some are, but most would have most would have relationships with uh, you know, their partner back home. And you know, it's a demanding job. It can be six plus months of the year you're away on a ship, and uh, you know, you can still be in touch, but um you're not physically there. So the the other side to that is when you uh usually when we're off the ship, we're completely free. So you can almost I guess uh have an arrangement there if your if your partner is willing for you to be away because it is your career, it is your livelihood, it's something you love doing, and you know they are okay with that arrangement, then that works perfectly fine. Like you said, quite often they can both work maybe in the same team, share a cabin, and essentially have part of their life on ships together, part of their life off ships. But you know, it can be difficult to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:39

That can be challenging too. There's there's a fine line between not enough time together and too much time together. Yeah, I mean I managed to lodge in Belize with my uh with my ex-wife, and we were on a very, very small island. It wasn't much bigger. It probably wasn't any bigger than the expedition ship. It was very small. And yeah, that can be a challenge as well. Because you're either with guests, other staff, all the time. Uh, you know, all the time, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:05

Yeah. Yeah, and and and that can be a challenge regardless of whether you're in a relationship, you know, it's this very unique lifestyle where you're always around people, and for a lot of that time you're you're an employee where you're actually doing your role, but you're also a human being on a ship that still has their you know needs in terms of being able to find some time for yourself or you know, going about your usual routines that you you try and do whether you're on on a ship or not. Um but I think people can find it difficult to get to that foundation with somebody if you work in this industry and you're you're single, because you know, it's this amazing lifestyle and opportunity, but you're you're rarely in one place for longer than six weeks. So that's a very short amount of time, I guess, to form a relationship, have any, you know, have any strong foundations to it before suddenly, you know, hey, I'm I'm off to Antarctica for two months, and I was planning on coming back here, but I actually uh have two months planned in Bali because I love being there that time of year, and then I go over to the Arctic to work, so in December I'll be back if you're still around.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:14

And uh have you heard of have you heard of the attachment theories where they've got like some people are anxious attached, some people are dismissive avoidant, and the dismissive avoidant just is very happy with a lot of space.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:26

It might work really well for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:28

I have heard of these and I and I know what I am.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:31

Yeah, I know what you are too, just based on your job title. No, I'm just kidding. No, I get it. It's the same thing with the digital nomad thing. It's like, yeah, yeah, no comment. Let's change this is not a relationship podcast. So anyway, so what I heard you saying was you working as an expedition leader, you realize that there's some limitations there, obviously there are with anything in life. And it sounds like you were saying that that's kind of why you started the consulting business. I and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but lead lead me into that. And is it something that you're able to do both?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:03

Yeah, sure. So ultimately, I would like to continue to work on ships because I don't think anything ever beats going away on an expedition, working on the expedition team, leading expeditions, and continuing to have that aspect of your career, which is what you love, travel and you know, essentially earning an income from it. But for me, I don't necessarily want to continue to spend six plus months of the year on a ship. I do want to have all those things like a partner, a family, pets as well, you know, a lifestyle at home where it's a bit more of a normal land-based existence, and then can almost uh cherry pick in some way, hey, this uh four-week contract to Antarctica looks awesome in December, so I might go do that. Or um, you know, I'd love to go back to the South Pacific because I miss the tropics and the the ship I work on is going there, so that's what I want to do. But it's not your uh it's not your the majority of your time isn't on the ship, and that's not your main kind of identity, which I figured out was important for me. I I want to be someone who goes away and works on ships, but I don't want that to be all encompassing of my life and my decisions. So it was one of those uh quite obvious situations I found myself in, which is I don't want to step completely away from the industry. I know there's a lot of opportunity in there to be able to do things like the you know advice and preparations and consulting for companies in the industry, and even better if it can be remote where I can, you know, have some uh contracts and work coming in for me to do while I'm shore-based, because uh, you know, I could I could definitely go into a completely different industry, but I don't think I need to, and I don't really want to. Yeah, yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:58

Is Sydney are you in Sydney because that's just where you want to be land-based, or is there strategically, logistically, is it just a really good place for the type of work you do? Or I guess my question's gonna come down to when you're when you're land-based, you can live anywhere in the world you want to live. Where where do you want to live? Are you where or are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:17

Yeah. Yeah, okay. Um, well, I have only just moved to Sydney, so I've been here for about six weeks, and it was a little bit of both. It was a decision where I I did want to be back in Australia just to be a little bit uh closer to family, and it's easy for me to get to you know where my family is down in Victoria from here. It's only an hour flight. I was in Bali for four years before this, so that was where I would spend my time in between ships, and and it was it was ideal for me. That's the lifestyle I wanted, and I'd go to somewhere you know tropical and warm and love the culture, love the food, love the the the kind of everyday existence there in Bali. But after four years, I I felt a little bit like I was just repeating the same patterns. And Sydney, Sydney was a choice for me because yes, if you're going to be an expedition company in Australia, usually your office is in Sydney. So there are Australian expedition companies whose headquarters are here in Sydney, and you know, it's easy for me to kind of be in touch or go for a coffee or chat about the industry with people in the industry, and it's also where the headquarters of international companies are as well. So Sydney's kind of the place in Australia for that, so it it it is logical in that sense, but it is uh also a place where I kind of felt like suited me right now. You know, I'm in a a really a really awesome part of the the city. I'm I'm close to the beach. I I like to you know be outdoors, I like to surf, I like to uh be able to, you know, be in the ocean, near the ocean as well. And I gave myself a good runway of time to be able to step away from the ships, which I've I've done for the remainder of this year, to be able to work on the consulting business and start to, you know, really really have time where I'm not getting taken away from this and going on a ship and you know working crazy hours each day. I can uh kind of facilitate the growth of this small.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:15

So are you at a point right now in your life where you meet somebody like potential friends, potential romantic partners, whatever? But I imagine that you if you're in Sydney and you meet somebody you've got an Aussie accent, you're from Australia, uh they're a little less likely to kind of like, why are you here? Where are you from? How long are you gonna be here? Because even though you spent a long time in Bali, I could still imagine you know, I've been in Bali, and I can imagine a local or somebody else that maybe lives there that's like, Are you really here? Do you really live here? How long are you gonna be around? Where I feel like you could probably just blend in and avoid some of those questions if you say, Yes, I live in Sydney. You don't have to tell them it's a you know a short-term rental or anything. Where like I'm in I'm in Colombia right now, so I meet people and it's like, Why are you here? Are you here with family? Yeah, you know, where do you live? How long are you how long have you been here? How long are you gonna be here? So have you noticed that already just by being in Sydney? Does it feel a little bit more like you belong or because I'm I'm looking for answers here? What because I'm trying to figure out what I'm gonna do with my life. So give me some insights here.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:16

Yeah, no, honestly, 100%. And this is the longest I will be in one place for since I started in in expeditions. And you know, a lot of those early conversations you have with people, like we touched on before, is I'm here now, but you know, this is what I do, and I I'm super excited about my job, and I find it interesting. But practically, it has its challenges straight up and it it can filter through a lot of potential suitors early, which is good, but it's also um a little bit uh, you know, damn it, I wish that one I wish that one I wish I was in a different situation when I had this conversation with her.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:53

I get it, I get it. I can relate a hundred percent. Yeah, it's all right.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:57

When I came to Sydney, I consciously in started to invest in people more because you know, I know I'm going to be here, and this could this could easily be somewhere that I end up staying for longer. You know, next year, the year after, who knows? It it it's kind of all to unfold. But when I when I mentally put myself in that position where it's a matter of uh you know making making more of an effort to meet and get to know people and get introduced into social circles, and it actually felt quite good to say I now live in Sydney, uh, this is what I'm doing. I've I've had this, you know, crazy last close to a decade traveling around the world and and now I I feel like I'm in the right place for me in terms of being more settled. And you you probably don't you probably don't realize it at the time, but if you're doing it for yourself because you know I I do want those things for myself in the future, I was hoping that by luck it would it would stumble my way and I wouldn't have to give up this transit. And nomadic lifestyle where I could, you know, still have the best of both worlds and maybe by chance meet this incredible woman who, you know, is okay with me being away for work and is is okay with me, you know, um not having a house and not having a car. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:24

I've been thinking that for about four and a half years now, and I'm like finally coming to the conclusion. It's exhausting. It's it's exhausting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:32

So you know, I I did want to I guess I wanted to, I I didn't feel any um there was no hesitation in giving myself the best chance for something to I was making myself more available more available, I would say. And uh, you know, here I am, and when I answer questions like that, I f I can honestly say what is the truth, which is you know, I do plan on being here and I'm not going away just yet, and I am uh, you know, looking to have to discuss visas because you're an Australian citizen.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:06

So it's like, yeah, yeah, and I'm here, I have no reason to leave.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:11

And yeah, it's the more you travel and see the world, the the more you realize, hey, it would actually be pretty nice to end up somewhere kind of close to home, close to family with someone who, you know, is happy to to be there and and and come into your life that way. Um, but you know, I'm uh I'm a blank, I'm a blank page with with with that and and and what might happen soon.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:32

Well, you and I need to stay in touch so I can learn some things from you because I'm I'm at I'm at about that spot too, because it's you know, I meet people and it's like uh you know, how long are you gonna be around? Well, I've got 90 days left on my visa, and then I'm not sure. Yeah, it's like that's not really great for dating. But anyway, Peter, we've discussed a bunch of things, some of them on topic, some a little off. Fascinating conversation. I really appreciate you being so open and willing to share so much. And I'm curious, what do you what did I forget to ask you? What do you wish I would have asked you? Or in other words, what do you want to make sure that our listeners hear about you, about Beyond Expedition Consulting, or just life in general before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:11

Yeah, sure. So something that hasn't come up, but I guess we were very close to it coming up is the kind of the uh the life of an expedition guide who works on ships, right? And you know, we we mentioned about you're always at work, you're always around people, you're in kind of confined spaces. I think there's not many opportunities that come up when you're on board who maybe express how challenging it can be. Because, you know, most of your conversations are kind of with people going through the same thing, or you're talking to to guests who they want to hear, you know, you love, you love it, you love everything, everything's a dream. Wow, I wish I did what you were doing when I was young. But you know, these are these it it's high stress, high reward for sure, and everybody loves the reward, and we all, you know, get a an an endorphin kick when we get to do cool things or we make decisions that you know turn out to be the the correct ones. But in expeditions and on in remote environments where there's a lot of variables and things outside of your control, there is a lot of pressure to make the decision that turns out to be the right one. And sometimes you you know you're never going to know whether that's correct until it happens. And and for me that was a huge struggle when I first started working as an expedition leader because try as you might to you know have plan A, B, C, D to be able to fall back on if things don't work out how they could the next day. You would spend a lot of time ruminating on maybe what you should have done, or if this happens, I should have because you have a lot of power to you know decide where the ship goes, what the activity is, what the experience of the the guests is going to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:00

Whether people are safe or not.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:02

Uh uh people's safety, the the the team, the the the guest safety, your own safety. And I would really struggle with that. I'd ruminate and I wouldn't sleep. And it was uh you know compounding because then the next day, you know, the same thing would happen, and it was almost no respite. And and for me it was a real it was a real learning curve because you have to compartmentalize the things that are in your control and the things that are outside. And you can you can have all this data and information coming to you, and that can be from you know your own research, what you're doing online, looking at weather forecasts, other people in the expedition team, other people who have worked as expedition leaders, but uh essentially you you filter that and you make the decision. And you need to trust yourself as well, because there's there's uh you know no use playing over every scenario in your mind. The only one you have to play is what happens the next morning when you wake up and then suddenly it's okay, now we're on, and you know, this is uh going to be a challenging day. Or in hindsight, I wish we were dealing with this instead of where we are now. And what I wanted to just highlight is that takes a toll, you know, it is a real it's your personal brand. So, you know, you you kind of feel responsible for a lot of things, but the the experience and and the safety is one thing. And don't get me wrong, it's it's highly it's highly there's a lot of praise and it's highly rewarding, but you deal with that and the pressure and releasing that pressure in your own way. And for me, I probably w was doing things that helped me cope, but they weren't sustainable. And I really felt like hey, if I keep putting myself in this situation and I am uh, you know, eventually some sometime that luck will go against you, and you might find yourself in a really dangerous high stress situation. And I just want to highlight that we need to be at our 100% when we put ourselves in these positions. You should be at your most uh mentally and physically fit and healthy position because it's a it's a very demanding position, and you need to protect that part of yourself. And I needed to do that by stepping away, which I've done now, and just giving my nervous system a chance to reset and focus on some other things in life, which might be my own kind of personal fitness and my own mental well-being, and almost almost allowing enough time to pass that I can take myself away from a high stress environment, build my build myself back up again in the sense of you know mentally and physically strong, and then go back and have a have a continued go. So longevity in this career is important, but I've seen already a lot of burnout, a lot of uh, you know people in situations that are responsible, have made a decision, and they may regret it or they that they made it because they weren't at their their sharpest. And yeah, it's not the place for that. So as much as you can always accept the next contract or take take another chunk of of money for going away and and working, you do need to you do need to look after yourself.

unknown 1:36:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:24

Well you mentioned bats. That's the most important You mentioned bats a few times. And I suspect, I don't know, I've been on an expedition ship leading a group, but that just means you know, just socializing, just showing up. And I wasn't, you know, I didn't have the responsibilities that the people on the ship had. And I suspect that anybody that has spent more than a few months in a role like that, listening to you right now, is like, oh yeah, yep, I get it completely. Because I even get it just from managing and managing an offshore offshore resort, which was similar in some ways, it can be incredibly stressful. And you know, as I as I heard you sharing that, I was like, Do you guys on the ships do you have access to Wi-Fi so you can do video calls if you wanted to? I'm just curious. Typically, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:07

Yeah, do you think uh probably ever since I've started, there's uh there's there's usually Wi-Fi anywhere the ships go in the world these days, so you can yeah, you can have contact to the other world.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:16

So if I was somebody that worked in the mental health field, uh therapist, a coach or something like that, listening to this conversation right now that was travel inclined and maybe was a guide or something in the past, I'd be thinking, geez, there's a business opportunity here. Maybe it already exists. But wouldn't it be great if like these the the companies had somebody on staff, like a staff therapist or somebody that they could do video calls with the team once a week or something like that? Does that exist? Is that something you would suggest? Is that maybe it already exists? But it sounds like it would be really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:47

Yeah, so you would probably find the usual avenue on board is through human resources. You know, they they probably have an umbrella of a number of different roles, and no one would probably associate you know, counseling or therapy through that, but there would be avenues within a bigger company to kind of be able to have a chat and say, hey, I'm I'm struggling, or hey, I you know, I feel like I need an outlet off the ship, or or maybe some like professional uh feedback. But yeah, I agree. I think um, you know, the the product really is the the personal experience that the expedition team can give, and you your company and your product is so much better off if that that person is in a good space and they're able to give their best. And you know, trust me, the most talkative, extroverted person after two months on the ship, they're gonna be a completely different personality type. And that's why the contracts are normally around about two months. But yeah, I think there's a I think there's a real opportunity there. And I would just hope that people use the the time they have when they're not on the ship to see that as okay, well, now I've got the time and now I've got the access, you know, different avenues I can explore.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:00

To r to recharge instead of just go drink every night or isolate in in a room somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:06

That's extremes, you know. You're you're you're so on, and then suddenly nobody wants a thing to do with you, and you don't have an alarm clock that needs to go off, you don't have to be anywhere. And everybody can go about that how they choose. You do need to find what works for you because uh you yeah, you can't sustain yourself at that level for 12 months of the year.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:25

It sounds like you got a whole other business idea in mind. It sounds like you're an expedition coach, expedition leader coach as well. You can help help people negotiate this because just having somebody to talk to that gets it that not sharing a cabin with you or not on the same boat, you know. Just because I get why the obviously the guests don't want to hear it, the boat captain doesn't want to hear it, HR probably doesn't want to hear it, and the other naturalist guides don't want to hear it because you're all like, yeah, you you and me both. Like what you know. Yeah, so anyway, that's interesting. I'm happy you brought that up. Fascinating conversation. Peter, any anything else before we before we go? I don't want to I I told you you'd have we'd have a chance to discuss anything you want, but do you think we've covered covered most everything?

SPEAKER_01 1:40:10

Yeah, covered about an hour's an hour's more an hour more than we thought. Which has been awesome. Yeah, I mean, uh I I really appreciate the the opportunity to to come on and and have a chat. And I love talking about the industry and expeditions and of course my own story getting here. So I appreciate the the chance to come on and have a good chat and yeah, always always open to future conversations and when I'm sure we'll keep in touch.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:38

It's it's why I do this because I enjoy it as well, and I'm so fortunate to have the opportunity to have you know a couple hour long conversation with somebody like you that has such a unique it's it's interesting because we all have everybody on the show's got their unique story, but it's amazing how much overlap there is, and I never would have realized after I started this. It's like after one conversation, it's like wow, that like which is just makes me even more excited about doing it because you'll listen to somebody you mentioned right before I record that you were listening to a conversation that I had with somebody else that that you had have some connections with in the past, and it's it's just pretty cool. So, but we can't do it without folks like you coming on and sharing stories and and honestly like getting kind of vulnerable. I mean, we were talking about some deep stuff, so I appreciate you getting us to do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:24

That's true. No, it's good. It's uh yeah, you know, it's a platform to get it out there, and yeah, we're we're a pretty small, we're a pretty small industry, and it's all about networks and connections and yeah, just being able to put some of these stories out there. Very cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:40

Well, that's uh you and I get to stay in touch and we'll have more conversations in the future. But thank you so much and hope you have a great day, Peter. Appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:48

Thanks, Jason, appreciate it. Yeah, you too, ciao.