Adventure Travel with Elinor Fish - Open Air Consulting

Guest Bio

Elinor Fish is a Tourism Business Consultant and founder of Open Air Consulting. With over 14 years of experience building and leading an international travel company, Elinor has firsthand insight into the challenges of growing a tourism business and preparing it for sale. After successfully scaling her own company and navigating the complexities of a business exit, she now helps travel industry owners understand the true value of their companies and guides them through the process of scaling, structuring, and ultimately selling their businesses on their own terms.

Show Summary

In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Elinor Fish about her journey from founding and operating a women-only travel company to becoming a trusted consultant in tourism business sales and growth. Elinor shares her experience of building her company from a solo endeavor into an international operation with a dedicated team and explains how the pandemic and post-Covid travel surge impacted her business and contributed to her decision to sell.

Elinor dives into the importance of preparing a business for sale well in advance, focusing on creating systems that allow the company to operate independently of the owner. She discusses the due diligence process, the role of business brokers, and how early planning can greatly improve outcomes for sellers. Additionally, she emphasizes that the steps taken to ready a business for sale can also free entrepreneurs to enjoy their businesses more and avoid burnout.

Throughout the conversation, Elinor offers practical advice on managing employee concerns during ownership transitions, capturing meaningful customer feedback, and aligning business sales with personal life goals. Her insights extend beyond selling to building a sustainable, valuable asset that supports both business success and personal well-being.

Big World Made Small guest features are invitation-only and selected based on story, experience, and fit with the show. Guest support helps make the episode possible, but it does not determine who is featured. This helps keep the show free of third-party ads and interruptions while keeping the focus on real, story-driven conversations.

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 1:05

Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the Adventure Traveler. Super excited to have each and every one of you back today, and I'm also very excited. I've got a fascinating guest that, in some ways, a lot of our listeners are gonna be familiar with what she's done, but she's she's doing something a little different that's very interesting to, I think, a lot of people listening. So without further ado, we've got Eleanor Fish here. She is a business consultant in the tourism, in the tourism space, and she owns open air consulting. Eleanor, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Thanks, Jason. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

It's gonna be a lot of fun. We spoke actually, I guess it was just a week ago, and I had so many questions for you. And I and I told you on that call, I said, don't I don't want to ask you too many things because I've got all these things in my head, and I want to wait until we come back and record because I like it to be spontaneous, and and I think I think most of our listeners kind of figure that out already. But Eleanor, so now I get to ask all these questions. We're gonna start with what the heck, not how you got there, because we're gonna get into how you got to the the point of having open air consulting. But just real quick, kind of the 60, 90 second elevator pitch. What is open air consulting? What is who do you help and what do you do?

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Yeah, well, I work in the travel industry helping travel industry business owners understand the value of their company in case maybe they want to sell it someday, or they just really want to, you know, increase the value of their company, maybe because they want to take an investment in the future, or they're just wondering how do I scale up and actually, you know, make my company bigger, more valuable, and uh, you know, build a team and you know, kind of just evolve my business from where it is today.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Very cool. And I know there's companies out there that you'd probably call business brokers. We've probably talked about that type of thing, that maybe do a pretty good job of coming in and helping you figure out what it's worth and figure out how to sell it. But my interpretation of what you're doing, different even than in that space, is really helping people kind of plan for succession plan. It's not succession plan. Well, maybe it is. I don't know what it's called, but you're helping them actually grow the business and get it ready, even if it's even if they don't want to do anything for three to five years. You can help them get ready instead of just show up when they say, Okay, I'm ready to sell. What do I do? Is that is that right?

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Yeah, absolutely. You know, business brokers you want to engage with kind of in that when you're getting close to that time that you're ready to sell, really, because they're gonna look at how to take the business that you have currently in that moment and take it to market. And so they're gonna be looking at what the business is worth today and where the value is and and who the potential buyers could be. Whereas I like engaging with business owners years before they get to that point, because at this point, we have time to not only understand what the business could be worth today, but how can we make it even more valuable before long before you go to put it up for sale? Because a lot of times uh there's work to be done there. You know, for me, it was a two-year process getting my travel company ready to sell before I actually closed a deal. And that was, you know, a pretty short timeline in which to take all the steps and really do the work that I needed to do to have a company that that could be sold, you know. And I I that's why I like having these conversations as early as possible with business owners, because sometimes it can be really a tough place to be in if you are maybe in like a bit of an urgent situation where you're like, I need to sell my company now. But then you go and have that meeting with a business broker, and maybe they say, Well, you know, this business may not be worth as much as you think it is, or it's not really ready to sell, but then there's no time to do anything about it. So I really like having those conversations much earlier, years before you think about selling your company. Like, let's just understand what's working and what uh what could work better to really make the business more of an asset rather than just a really big job that you've created for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Which a lot of people probably feel like they've just created a big job. And we're gonna get further into that. But for do I, you know, as I was listening to you, I was kind of coming up with the analogy of like a house, because I worked in real estate. And yeah, is it better to have a realtor or somebody that's gonna help you sell your house come in and look at it and maybe give you some pointers on do this and do that? But that's all like just cosmetic stuff. That's just like, you know, yeah, you should go ahead and replace the countertops in the kitchen or whatever, or you should throw some new paint on the wall, or maybe you shouldn't, I don't know. But those are all things that are just visual. It's just like, how do we make it look better? But when we're talking about businesses, it's not the logo, it's not necessarily the aesthetics of the website. That might be part of it, but it's also the books. You know, somebody that's coming in to buy a company is gonna want to see the books and figure out, you know, did you keep records? Do you have a viable email list of past clients and contacts and all this stuff that you probably know way more than I do about it? So it it seems like it is much more valuable to come in much, much earlier. And I'm sure you kind of give them some ideas of what to do, but are you able to kind of will you work with them over the course of a few years? Is that the idea? Or you just come in one-time deal. Here's here's some tweaks and things you can do, and then let me know when you're ready to sell it, or what does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Yeah, well, ideally there there's a kind of an ongoing relationship that that develops because what really helps for a business owner to see is start to look at the business from the perspective of the way a buyer would potentially see it. And your your real estate analysis is actually really accurate because you know, when you're looking at buying a house, you go and see the property, you visually inspect the property. And so you get a real good sense of what needs fixing in the house and maybe you know what looks good, what is superficially patched together and what is really solid underneath underneath the surface of things. And so, you know, when you're selling a business, there's this whole process that buyers and sellers go through called due diligence. And honestly, like I've been through it a couple of times now. It can be quite painful because in a business, it the business becomes so personal, you know, to the owner. Like it's such a something that you created, it's your baby, you know every little, you know, every little piece and part of how that business works. And then when you have someone come in from the outside and they start poking around and asking questions and wanting to see all your stuff, and if you're not prepared to really show them that, first of all, it feels very invasive.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

You know, just because you've never had to share that much of your business with someone before. And sometimes the questions that, you know, buyers ask can be very difficult if you're not quite ready to answer those questions. But the whole point of due diligence is because the buyer wants to understand all those layers of the business. Because unlike a real estate deal, you can't visually see it. You need to kind of go in and have those conversations and be shown all the supporting documentation of potentially going back years. And this is where a lot of this is why a lot of deals don't actually close, you know, because one, either buyers are like, you know, I don't have the data that you're asking me for. So I can't, I can't support the asking price uh that I I'm asking for this business, or maybe they just don't feel comfortable. They don't feel ready to answer some of these tougher questions about the decisions, the strategic decisions that were made in the business. And so, you know, what I do as a business advisor is we really have those tough conversations because I come from the outside and I look at it from that buyer's perspective, and I say, well, here's the things that a buyer is going to want to know. Like, why do the financials show this, but you say that? These things don't align. So we need to have some answers for that. You know, and so that that's definitely a big, a big part of it.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

And I also suspect it's probably a little less stressful to have someone like you come in and pardon me, go through that with them as opposed to a buyer that has put in some sort of offer that's contingent on the due diligence process. There's a lot of pressure when those questions are being asked then. When it's someone like you that they've hired to come in and help them, it's like practice, like if you're gonna go to court, you gotta get on the stand. It's like you want to practice with somebody that is on your side first before they just throw you on the stand, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Yeah, exactly. Because I'm on, I'm on the business owner's side. I want them to get that best possible outcome. And yeah, it takes preparation and planning to get there. So so it can definitely make when you get to that point of you when you do go to market and you whether you work with a broker or not, but you're ready to list the business, you know it's coming, you've already got your documentation all in order, you've already got your financial story all prepared and ready to go. And you can go into those conversations feeling so prepared because you know, with business transactions, like there's so many different ways to structure them. There's so many different ways the process can go. And it just it's, I think it would be really hard to do if you went into it without kind of having that prep work done and just educate yourself about not only how to close a business deal, but to get really clear on like what you as the seller really want to get out of it. You know, because one of the things I'm so passionate about is having conversations with business owners about what their goals are after selling, what what do they want to get from the this transaction? Uh, because it should align with whatever it is they want to do after selling, whether it's retiring, whether it's maybe starting a new venture, maybe it's making some other kind of investment, or there's some other thing. But we might as well come up with a plan that meets not just the needs of your business, but you know, your personal financial needs as well. Because you know, building a business takes a lot, a lot of time and energy. And there's usually a lot of sacrifices that business owners would make along the way. And I just want them to make sure that they feel those sacrifices made over the years was worth it and actually pays off at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Right. Because I I'm imagining you mentioned the different way you structure deals. And if your plan is to go out and buy another business, but then you structure a deal in a way that the person's gonna be making payments over the next 20 years, you might not have the cash to go buy the other business. And then when you go to the other business and they say, well, I'll pay you over, you know, over the years because I've got this other person paying me over the years, that put that makes it very risky for some people. So is that that's kind of what you're talking about when you're talking about figuring out what you want to do.

unknown 11:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Yeah, that kind of a thing and and just the the timing of it, you know, because if you if you if you're like, well, I want to sell in maybe three years or maybe 10 years, well, the outcome of those two scenarios is completely different. You know, uh it'll have a very different impact on your life. And the value of the business could be drastically different in those two scenarios. So yeah, so it's it's worth kind of considering all of those things because most of the times business owners don't really know when they they want to sell, but they want to start thinking about the options and know that they have options. And so the other thing I love about the work I do is it just it gives business owners more of that freedom back, that freedom to choose when to sell their business and and not being forced into selling it out of desperation or urgency, because you know, like life happens, right? And and sometimes a lot of small business owners are kind of forced into a situation where they have to think about selling before they thought they would. Like maybe there's, you know, an illness that they have to attend to, or aging parents they need to take care of, or uh, you know, kids that are uh getting older and about to leave home, and they, you know, the owner wants to have something have more time for family, or just there's a shift in priorities, and that's totally normal, right? Like we go through different phases of life.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

And I suspect a lot of these scenarios, I mean, these are mostly, I'm gonna say, small business entrepreneurs working in the tourism space. And I'm sure there's I I know there are scenarios where somebody's like, oh yeah, my son is he's really involved. He wants to take over the business, and and that's all fine until boom, the son or the daughter no longer wants to do that, you know, and and they go a different direction. And then mom and dad are like, what the heck? We, you know, we were planning to to move to Tahiti or something, and now we can't because we're uh we're in this tough spot because our kid's not going to take over the business. I you I heard you say when they get ready to sell, whether they want to work with a broker or not. That's kind of what I heard. So I'm curious, are you able to act as a broker or is that a different role? And do you facilitate that? So, what is what does the word broker mean when you said that?

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Yeah, well, a business broker kind of functions the way like a real estate broker might. And actually, in the state of Colorado, you need to have a real estate license to be a business broker. And uh, I don't currently do that role, but what I do is when I'm working with clients, maybe over a long period of time, we've been preparing the business to sell, I can then refer that client to a business broker who would actually work on that final stage of actually putting together the marketing package, hosting the business for sale in some marketplaces, and then negotiating the terms of the transaction and representing the seller in that transaction. So I don't do that work, but I do collaborate and refer to business brokers when a business owner is ready to do that. And that makes sense. Yeah, exactly. And you know, it it doesn't make sense for businesses of a certain size for real micro businesses. You know, they may not want to do that, but they should have a legal advisor absolutely look over at least the terms of the purchase agreement that that's being presented to them at the very least, if they don't work with a broker. But yeah, I mean, brokers do cost money too. They take a chunk of the transaction and they they earn it though. So there's pros and cons to that. But that's another area in which I uh just have those conversations with my clients to help them decide what it could look like, what their choices are, and what's the best route for them.

unknown 15:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

And it makes makes total sense to me. I'll use kind of the analogy of of real estate homes and stuff, is a real estate agent is working on a commission. The real estate agent doesn't really want to talk to you in depth for three years before you finally decide to list it. You're not gonna get much out of them. They might be nice enough to come over and and tell you, okay, yeah, your carpet looks fine and you clean up your backyard at some point in the next few years, but they're not gonna continuously walk through all this stuff because you may or may not ever sell. So it wouldn't make sense. So I assume the same thing with a business broker is a business broker is probably, I don't know, unless he's able to really he or she's really able to play the really long game, is gonna be able to sit down and and help you figure out how to grow your business and and get it ready to sell in, you know, three, five, ten years. But you can do that, right? So that's that that makes yeah, that's that's pretty cool. Do you when it comes to the sale? Because I understand you're not the broker, you're not necessarily handling the transaction, but I'm just curious if it's similar to with homes. Ideally, the buyer and the seller don't actually meet each other because of emotional stuff. Because buyers and sellers have a tendency to piss each other off, you know. So the buyer comes in and says, I'm not gonna buy this this paint in this one bedroom is horrendous. You guys need to change that before I'll close the deal. And the the seller is like, My daughter wanted that color. That's her favorite color. And well, screw you, if you if you don't like it, go find a different house. So where I'm going with all that, because we started earlier, you mentioned that when when a buyer comes in and starts questioning all these things, it can feel very invasive. So, does a good broker keep run interference and stay in the middle of that? Do they let the buyers and sellers talk, or is it in business is a little different where they need to talk?

SPEAKER_01 17:41

They definitely have to sort of help manage that interaction a little bit because yeah, it it when there's a lot of money at stake on both sides, and both both sides are feeling a certain amount of pressure and and they're managing their own personal risk in this transaction, it it does create potentially a stressful situation. But from my experience, there's there is definitely more interaction directly between the buyers and the sellers uh in this industry. And you know, that's one of the things I love about the travel industry is that it is, it's it's it's experiential. It's about relationships, it's about people. So unlike a real estate transaction where you're just buying uh a physical thing, um, you know, when you're buying a business, most often I think the buyer is gonna want to actually come on site. Like maybe you're an outfitter, for example. They're they're gonna want to come and go on some of the the activities and actually see how the business operates, see it from the customer's perspective for themselves. So they'll they'll go on site and they'll do the activities and see how the team is operating and that sort of thing. Or maybe they'll come to your offices and and uh get a sense of the atmosphere and the people and the, you know, how how the place runs, that sort of thing. Sometimes that's done in an incognito capacity where the employees are not really let in on what's going on. So that's pretty common where only the owner knows who this person is, but they they try to, you know, the this person will kind of come in in sort of an undercover capacity so as not to let on that they're actually looking at buying the business, but they are there to want to try to experience it. And yeah, and that's why, like preparing for the sale before you get to that due diligence phase where it is a lot of exchanging documents, that's where you know the business broker will try to kind of manage things and they'll manage the flow of documentation. They'll set up what's commonly called like a data room where you're uploading documents and then the the buyer is going and retrieving them to examine. So there's not a lot of you know emailing directly between the buyer and and the the seller. But also too, there's really important conversations that need to take place. And you know, the the the buyer's gonna want to understand why things were set up the way they were to really understand what is drive, what are the biggest value drivers in this business? Why why is it set up the way it is? Uh, how crucial is this, you know, this system to creating the economic output that the business creates? Because they're trying to gauge in their minds really, is this business worth what the seller is asking me for? And can I run this business without them? So they're trying to imagine how the operation will work or won't work if when the owner, the seller, is absent.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Right. And which is a little different than like with a house, because you know what? If if the seller forgot to tell me where the thermostat is, we'll figure it out. You know, like any anybody can, you know, you've got your inspector comes through and checks things out just to make sure there's, you know, whatever. But once the seller's gone, whatever comes up, but you can't find the garage door opener, you can hire somebody to come in and get, you know, you can get a garage door opener. Pretty much everything with a house, you can get somebody else to step in and that knows what they're doing. But yeah, in a small business, tour operation business, yeah, it's like if you start the business and all of a sudden can't figure out how to get into the database to get the client files.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Right. Well, and this is where it gets kind of interesting, especially in a service-based business. Like so for service-based in businesses that maybe don't have a lot of physical assets, like a travel agency or a tour operator, they're mostly their biggest value is in their IP, in their their, they've got their customer base, they have their their trips, and a lot of fulfillment of those trips is subcontracted to the suppliers in the country. So if a tour operator is selling their business, what are they selling? Well, they're selling their intellectual property or their, you know, their ways of doing things. And how you put value on that can be very subjective. And so the owner might think, look, I've got a great operation here. It all lives in my head. Only I don't know what our secret sauce is. Well, that is of zero value to a buyer. Like it doesn't matter that you generate millions of dollars a year if that IP only exists in your mind, or you know, 80% of it is in your mind, and um and you need to tell everyone else how to make it operate on the ground, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

And so that's that's often where I think a lot of business owners kind of come to the realization like, oh my gosh, if I really want to sell this someday, it can't just live in my head. It can't depend on me to operate. And so once we start to really like uncover the layers of what it is they have built out in their business and what is retained within them, then it really starts to become clear what the work will look like. You know, and that's why I'm not working with people over longer periods of time because you can't change this stuff overnight. But there is a pathway that we can take to change that, you know, that structure and make it something that someone else can actually acquire and then operate.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

I'm sure and we're going to get into your background and I know that you were aware of this as well, but working in the tourism space, probably a lot of industries, but I've worked in the tourism space most of my life. And I've worked for people and I've worked in organizations where it's like you have a question and answer to the question is, oh, you got to ask so and so and it's usually the owner of the company. And you like, so you go to the owner and say, hey, you know, I'm trying to get in touch with this operator in Colombia and he's not getting back to me to confirm this this transfer. I'm just thinking of a scenario. He's not getting back to me to transfer and the owner says oh well yeah he responds best by WhatsApp. So he's never gonna he's never gonna respond by email so you gotta you gotta reach out to him by WhatsApp. And that's just an example of this, you know, I think you call it IP intellectual property. It's all in their head. And if I if I were to come in and take over that business and he were to disappear I'd be sitting there waiting for emails to come back from this driver in Colombia that's never going to respond by email. It's just an example and I'm sure anybody that's listening to this that's ever worked in a tour vision business knows that there's a lot of oh go ask so and so but what happens if so and so's not around. Exactly exactly that's a that's a tough deal. It's it's very fascinating. We're not gonna get too into the weeds about you know strategies and and accounting and finance and all that stuff. That's that's a great conversation for you to have with somebody after this show and they listen to this and they click on the link if that's the conversation they want to have I trust you'll have that with them. And yeah we're gonna now we're gonna dig back into the the past figure out how you got from where you were to where you are I like to go pretty young because I like to kind of hear how people even get into tourism. I don't know how how far back once I asked somebody is like how far back should we go? And they said, well I was born on December 16th you know in such and such a place we don't need to go that far back but I'd love to kind of hear about your upbringing your childhood and figure out what the connections are that led you here. So how far back should we go?

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Yeah well I really think that my love for travel was sparked when I was a teenager. I was growing up in British Columbia and I had an opportunity to do a student exchange through the the Rotary Club.

unknown 25:36

Oh cool.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

And so at 17 I went off to France for a year and lived in France and you know lived with host families and got to travel around and meet other students and it like was a life changing experience. I absolutely loved it. And so that's when I definitely discovered that you know this whole idea of just traveling and living in different countries is definitely a part of my life.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Do you remember do you remember the moment that you I either found out that this rotary program existed or that you went through the process of applying for it or do you like so what was going on maybe a year or two before that? Were you already thought you wanted to go somewhere or was this rotary thing just kind of accidentally no idea.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Yeah I I I hadn't really thought about it. You know but I lived in a really small town up in the mountains of the Canadian Rockies and so you know had you know pretty small life but it was all good. But my father was involved with the Rotary club and so he knew about the the student exchange program and I didn't know anything about it. My parents really encouraged me to check it out. And they said if you were to apply to do the student exchange program in any of these countries that were listed which one would you pick? And something in me said France and sure enough like I just fell in love with everything French. I love the language the food the culture the history you know when I lived there getting to travel around is visit like the Loire Valley and the castles and just see the history living in the landscape.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Yeah but what what but what was it but at the time when you saw France on the list like had you thought about France before were you taking French classes? Were you on your radar?

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Yeah as a Canadian I was learning French. So I I felt like I had a basic understanding of French, you know, because it's a mandatory part of the Canadian school curriculum. But I wasn't exactly conversational. I wasn't immersed in the French language. So to get to go to France and actually uh be immersed in another language and start to become conversational that that was just to me that was a really cool process. So it was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

So tell me about your parents because what I heard you say was your dad basically came home and said hey there's this thing I'm just curious if you were to pick if you were to participate in this where would you go? And you said France and you said that they were very supportive there are some parents in the world that would never present that to their teenage daughter even if they knew about it and even if they had the ability to make it happen would just conveniently not mention that. There's others that are like if you don't shape up we're gonna send you off to boarding school somewhere they won't maybe they want you to go somewhere. I don't know. But looking back were your parents had they traveled before was that something that was important to them what tell me a little bit about your parents so I can understand why they took that route.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Gosh yeah well my my parents grew up in like eastern Canada and I'd say more my mom is much more of a world traveler you know she grew up kind of in the the hippie 60s and you know did like the backpacking around Europe thing. And so she was really it was you know easy for her um to see me doing that too. And so she was super supportive and I think my dad was comfortable with it because he was already familiar with the Rotary Club program and how it worked and also to like trusted how the the host families are also a part of the Rotary Club. So it felt like a very safe option for someone like me to to go live in a foreign country. It's not like it was just being shipped off into the unknown. So to me it felt like a very uh a very safe container in which to have those first experiences traveling in a foreign country without my parents and meeting new people and being in a foreign language.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

So had you traveled outside of British Columbia up until that point?

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Not much, you know not a whole lot. So yeah it was a big step.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

What what other kinds of things were you interested? Like if I'd if I had a time machine and met you and you were 15 14 or 15 and I said Eleanor what do you want to do when you grow up do you do you recall what you would have said no but I probably would have said that I wanted to work with horses because that's popular.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

That's all I wanted to do I as a teenager I had had a horse and I competed in our local our local horse shows and was just going around to different horse shows and doing like show jumping and dressage and trail riding and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

So that was kind of all I cared about I've there's a a few teenage a few women that when they were teenagers were really into horses so I I get that especially in kind of in that part of the world I think I grew up in the Rockies as well and a little little south of where you were but did from the moment your dad first brought this up or your parents first brought this up and said hey this there's this program here's a list of countries and you're like man France would be great. So from that moment until you actually got on the plane to go, how much time do you remember? Was that a a short quick time or did you have a year to plan or what did what did that look like?

SPEAKER_01 31:00

You know I haven't thought about this in a long time.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

That's I sorry I I I tend to ask those kinds of questions to people. Test your memory.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

When I look back now it seemed like it was fairly short period of time. It was probably a few months you know um so not a lot of planning. I I didn't know anything about the family I was going to go live with and I just thought you know we'll just see what this is all about. You know it was it's really cool to think back now just how I could just you know trust the process and just be like, you know, I don't know anything about this, but I'm just going to go with it and see what happens. You know, and now as a as an adult at this phase of life it's like oh my gosh I would have done so much like planning and thinking ahead and wanting to work out all the potential scenarios and make sure that I've thought everything through but you know that's the that's the luxury right of youth and and that you you kind of just don't worry about all the what ifs sometimes and you just go for it and just be like, well hey let's go see how this is going to work out.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

You can you can see that kind of in just the way the backpacker, the gap year, the thing that's it's the the teenager that before they go to college or on a summer be you know summer break in school, they just like go do stuff, right? They just go do it.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

And when you when you're talking to maybe a potential new client or something that's 50 and they gotta know who's picking me up at the airport. Yeah. What's their license plate number how am I going to communicate with them? Is is the room does the room have you know different types of it's like we're just so different. Some of us I mean it I travel full time I'm not like that but but I get it.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

No but it's true. Like when I you know I had a a travel company for 14 years and yeah I mean I saw so much of that in in that I we specialize in just women only group travel. And yes so a lot of the women that came on our trips had not traveled outside the country before or hadn't traveled alone before. And yes that they they really wanted that reassurance of knowing every little detail of how it was all going to work. And I I understand that need for security especially in this crazy world where we hear about all the you know potential threats or dangers and and yes you need to be smart and and careful but the price we pay for that too is just kind of this loss of like spontaneity or like not really knowing what we're gonna do when we get to a place. Like I remember right after college I didn't know where I was going to start my career. So I like booked a trip to Maui. I just thought I don't know what I'm gonna do in Maui but just I think I need to go there. And so I just like booked a flight and like stayed in hostels on Maui for a few weeks just to kind of like figure out what I was going to do next. And I had like no plan. I knew nothing about what I was going to do. It just sounded great. So that's what I did.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

One thing I've noticed having these conversations we've got almost a I've had a couple hundred conversations now just as part of this this you know platform the the podcast but if you ask people that travel that have a handful of experiences what their most memorable moments are, they're almost always the ones that weren't planned which is kind of ironic considering considering almost every time I'm having a conversation with somebody that worked in the industry and and made a living helping people make plans. But if you ask about their personal experiences, it's that you know I'm going to France I I know there's a Rotary family there, but I don't really know much about them or I think I'll go to Maui. I don't know why, but I think I'll go. I still do that. I've got a little bit of ADHD so I I have no problem moving forward without plans. But it's but the most interesting experiences I've had are the ones that just really for example just like I'm walking from my Airbnb to the grocery store so that's my plan but then I see something or hear something down a street that I don't know I've never been down. I'm like, oh it looks like something interesting is down there. So I divert from my plan and walk down the street and that's where I see the cool stuff. You know it's almost never the grocery store that's interesting. It's the stuff that wasn't on the agenda. And it it sounds like you've had some of that experience just as well. Hunter I do want to ask you do you remember the moment whether because when I asked you about travel getting inspired or you brought up that it was this trip to France that really got you going and hooked on it. But do you remember a moment either on that trip or after when you're like yeah tourism I'm gonna work in the tourism business. I'm I want to do this for a living do you remember that moment?

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Yeah yeah I think so because um you know after college like I said I wasn't sure what I wanted to do though I got a degree in geography so I think that was kind of a signal but I still I'm like what do you do with a geography degree?

SPEAKER_00 35:50

I didn't really have a plan for that what let's pause here for a second.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

What does what do people do? I've had a few guests that have mentioned geography what do you do with a geography degree? What's the traditional typical path with a geography degree? Did you ever figure that out? I mean because I'm thinking maybe that's a start to go in to get a master's in political science or something.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Yes yeah and I was interested in political science and um so there's a lot of like global economics involved and sociology. So those were kind of interesting aspects of it. So it was about people and places and economies. So I found all those things very interesting but still did not know what I was going to do. So the next thing after that is I find myself living in in the Canadian Rockies on the Alberta side of the border. So that's where like Banff National Park is and I got my first real career job after college was working for the Banfflick Louise Tourism Bureau. And that's what like totally got me 100% hooked on working in tourism as an industry. I just absolutely fell in love with it because I had I kind of landed like the coolest entry-level job I think you could possibly get at the time, which was working for the Bamflick Louise Tourism Bureau in the PR and media department and it was my job to organize fam trips and press trips and yeah for like film crews television crews and print journ journalists and photographers and put together their itineraries to have them come and experience FAMF and like Louise and I got to spend tons of time with these folks and show them around and host them in dinners and I mean it was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

It was so much fun that is yeah because your your job is to find the fun stuff for for them to to go experience.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Yeah yeah yeah that's perfect absolutely how long did you do that job I did that for about three or four years and uh and then I went uh to Australia for a year and worked still worked in media but I was actually working for a cruise magazine because you know the cruise industry is huge in Australia and I was living in Sydney and so I did that for a year and then I came back to the Canadian Rockies and that's kind of when I I kind of started the consulting side of things where I was just doing freelance marketing for the province of Alberta as well as for banks like Louise Tourism and some other local organizations doing kind of PR and media related stuff. Still very much in the tourism industry.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

I don't want to skip anything big but I'm curious how you took the leap from that into starting your own tourism business, not the consulting the marketing stuff, but I mean you had a to a tour operation business. So what happened that kind of got you from doing the consulting the stuff for Banff like Louise and all that to the point where you actually launched your own business?

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Yeah well I'll tell you I never would have predicted a path like this but the way it worked out was um from living in the Canadian Rockies I got an offer to actually work for a running magazine because I'm also really big ultra marathon runner or was for a period of time. And I was freelance writing writing articles for this running magazine and then they offered me a position on staff but that meant moving to Colorado so I was looking for a life change anyway. So I moved to Colorado where I still am today living in the Canadian Rockies and was working for the running magazine and one of the assignments that I was given this was in 2007 I was given the assignment to go on a running tour with a running company in Torres del Pine National Park in in Chile and I got to okay yeah I'll go I can do that. Okay I'll take that assignment I mean this was like the golden age of you know print media and travel media where journalists were paid to go on these kinds of trips which I think it's less common these days but I was teamed up with some of the world's best outdoor uh you know active travel photographer Dan and Chanin Patatucci and you know they've they shoot a ton of like running climbing all kinds of like uh outdoor sports photography for catalogs and magazines for decades. So I teamed up with them and we spent this like two weeks in Patagonia running around Torres del Pine and and I wrote this big article about the trip for the magazine. But it was on that trip and having deep conversations with the other people that were in our group which was you know people from all over the world. We were all traveling together and staying in these refugios as we ran day by day around Torres del Pine and then shooting these photos and having deep conversations with Dan and Chanel Patatucci who had just created this incredible life where they traveled the world and did their photography. And to me that was just mind blowing. I'm like I can't believe that this is your job like you are out here doing all this incredible work. And I just realized how much I love this notion of combining running which was my passion and travel which was my other passion. And so it planted the seed like I could create a running travel company too. And of course you know Dan Patatucci he's the kind of guy who's just like you've got to follow your dreams. If that's what you want to do you just gotta do it. Like don't waste time like this is this is what life is for and and so to me it just seems like I don't know how I'm gonna make this happen, but I think this is going to happen. And so I'll admit it was a couple more years later before I actually took the first step and did you create the first trip.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

I'm curious if you had other people in your life that were supportive obviously this couple was very encouraging but as far as job with the magazine like did you have the ability to say hey this is what I really want to do were they supportive or your family back home you know because sometimes people that go into tourism jobs, you were already working in tourism. But sometimes when people are like well I want to quit my job as an accountant and go start a running tourism business some people might say what are you crazy? So I'm just curious what kind of responses were you getting from people around you?

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Yeah. Well I was really lucky I think that the the the the magazine was very supportive because I did start my business as a side hustle. You know I I was just doing one or two trips a year and they were cool with me doing that. And I even got to mention my running trips which were just like weekend long retreats all centered around trail running and wellness. And I got to mention them in the magazines. And that kind of what got the whole thing kickstarted is I was able to really get a lot of attention and really start to build my you know my my my customer base pretty quickly because I had access to to that audience and then also to have all these other connections in the travel industry and in travel media it really helped me get that early momentum. So I did have that support for the first couple of years and also to you know my husband was really supportive as well. And gratefully a few years into it once I said you know I think I'm gonna quit my full-time job and go just do this travel business even though it's not a full-time job yet and I have no idea how I'm gonna make it one but I I think I need to do this and you know I'm really grateful he was very supportive as I made that transition because yeah it it you know it took a little while to kind of build something that was just a part-time business into a full-time business.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

Do you remember the first because there's you've got a couple things you mentioned you kind of started as I'm gonna say side hustle, whatever, as the side job while you're working for the magazine and then there was the moment okay I'm gonna quit the magazine and I'm gonna put all my time and effort into into the business. But I guess the question was there a particular action you took that really you feel like yep, that was the thing that started it. Not just inspired you but was there a so an example might be somebody listening this might maybe they started their tour business by going online and buying a domain name. They're like I just got to do something like I don't know what I'm gonna do but I'm gonna go buy a domain name or I'm gonna design a logo or whatever before they've ever actually done anything else. Was there something like that for you?

SPEAKER_01 44:41

I mean there was it was just a lot of like almost taking just the next step, you know what was the first step?

SPEAKER_00 44:47

What would you say the first step was?

SPEAKER_01 44:49

First step was I'm like good question what was it? It was probably booking the venue for the very first retreat. So I had to just like pick a place, get some dates. So you know I did that and and and so then I knew when where it was going Be, I knew when it was going to be, and worked out, you know, what we were going to do while we were there, scouted out the trails, figured out what I was going to charge and how I was going to feed people. And uh yeah, and then and then start to talk about it and promote it. But coming from this marketing background, promoting it was kind of the the funnest part for me. That was the easy part.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

I know how to do this.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Probably even had some probably even had some friends in the business that maybe would want to get involved and promote it a little bit, journalists, writers, stuff like that. I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

I did, I did. Well, and that that throughout the whole growth of the business. So over the course of 14 years, I had a lot of press coverage. And it's because I knew how to do that. I had those connections and I knew how to make those pitches. I hosted writers on our trips several times throughout the years. And like what really helped with a huge step of growth was like about a decade in, I hosted a writer uh from the Washington Post. And that turns out her article was syndicated in newspapers across the country. And I mean, we just the kind of you know, our business really blew up after that. And that's when I started like, I'm like, I need to hire, I need to build a team, and like this is really taking off. And and so at each, you know, period there, there there was, there would be another thing that would just help facilitate kind of that next level of growth that was just exciting and such a thrilling ride. It's crazy now. I look back at it.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

I I'm sure it is. That very so the first retreat that you set up, you went out and got it got everything set up. You just told us about all that. It was a success because you kept doing it. Regardless of what happened, it was a success. So I'm I'm reluctant to ask you, was it successful? Yes, it was, but was it successful in the way you'd hoped it would be at the time?

SPEAKER_01 47:00

I think initially I just wasn't really sure what to expect. I didn't have like specific goals or expectations. I just wanted to have enough people there to make it fun and feel, yeah, exactly. And and feel like, oh my gosh, like I I actually made money on this, and I had more people than I was even aiming for. And and you know, it was like just testing a concept in my mind. And and it worked, you know, and so that's one of the really one of the early lessons that I learned that then became kind of a guiding principle throughout the evolution of the whole company from like a one-person operation to, you know, a big multi-million dollars a year's seven people on the team kind of operation, was that at that very first retreat, the reason I thought people were coming ended up not being the reason that people were coming. Because my initial concept was I just want to introduce more women to the sport of trail running and help them like learn the skill and just feel comfortable running on trails in the woods as opposed to on you know roads and stuff like that. And it made sense where I was coming from with the world of working for the running magazine, and it was a very male-dominated sport at the time. And so, but once we got there and all the women were together, and we're in this lodge in the in the Rocky Mountains, and we're all just hanging out and talking together and like connecting, it made me realize that, like, okay, what really is bringing us together is this shared love of running. But it's it just as women, we just really wanted to connect with other women who that we felt in alignment with, like, we just understood each other, we understood why this is important to us and what running does for us mentally and physically, and just enjoyed being out in nature and running on beautiful trails. And so the big takeaway from that was for me was always listen to to really what the customer is saying that they value about the experience that you create. And try not to be distracted by what I think it is I'm selling or the reasons why this offering is what it is. But if I always listen to what the customer says that they care about and why they're there and what brought them and focus the messaging on that and always design the experience around what the customer says that they get out of it, then you you'll always win. You'll always have kind of that that right value proposition that makes it so much more easier to stand out in the marketplace or you know, like design a trip that's going to really appeal to the right market.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

What do you what do you think your superpower is as far as figuring that out so quickly? Even on this, it sounds like on the first retreat. What is the what is your yeah, what is your superpower that was able to help you figure that out? Because there's a lot of people out there that have been in business a long time that if you ask them what their customers want, they have no idea.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Yeah. So well, I think coming from the world of of like media and storytelling, I I got to see like the best in the business, how they listen to people and how they tell though their stories. And so I feel like I was exposed throughout my career to people who are really good at that. And it helped me learn just how important that is in business, how important it is in business to make sure that you're really listening clearly and understanding the bigger story that they're trying to tell you about why this is important to them and why they're here and really what they want to get out of it. And so um, so I think that really became my superpower. And throughout the whole business, I built it into the business model and it looked so different over the years. Like in the early years of my business, it was about me being there at the retreats, listening to what people were saying. But then later in the business, I'm not the one there interacting directly with the customers. So we had to create communication systems uh that allowed our customers to give us feedback in a way that we could actually receive and then use to either make our services better or to uh you know improve our customer onboarding process, improve our communication systems, adjust our marketing messages, like to make sure that we we systematize that process as the business grew so that it never got lost.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

Right. And I I remember a little while ago I said, well, we're not gonna go into strategies and specifics and dah-da-da-da. But I'll tell you what, here's an opportunity that anybody listening to this, like, they're gonna wish I would have asked. Can so because there are a lot of tour operators that listen to this, and that is a struggle for most of them is a few things. One is feedback systems.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

Especially if they've got a team and they're not actually spending time with their clients, because the feedback they're getting might be the guides, but the guides have their own desires and needs and wishes and reasons why they're guides. And the guide might want to talk about the transfer driver was late again, da-da-da-da-da. And so it's all you're hearing is we have logistical problems. When in reality, maybe that delay created an opportunity for a group of ladies to go grab some street food and and connect with the local culture, and maybe the guests thought it was amazing, and the guide is all frustrated and annoyed because they're trying to stay stay on a time time schedule. That's just an example in my mind that popped up. So, a tour operator that's listening to this. What advice is there a particular strategy that or tactic that worked really well for you that as far as getting that type of feedback? Any a little nugget you can share?

SPEAKER_01 52:49

Yeah, gosh. I mean, I think it's really important that there's a there's really good communication at every step of the customer journey, you know, and uh and so whether it's in your in the sales process, you know, we we spent a lot of time really refining just what those conversations sounded like. It's making sure that you know, we we were it was always very much about like listening first to what the customer had to say, because sometimes they would tell us like their whole like running history and like an or an inventory of their running injuries because they want to, they were saying, like, well, I want to do this one running trip, but I have all these, you know, old injuries and these are my limitations and these are my needs. Can I still do this trip? And and so that we could answer those questions, you know, as accurately and specifically to what they wanted to know as possible so that they could make the right uh decision for them, because you know, it's it's a pretty big deal to book a big group uh vacation. And then, you know, and then after it took place, kind of having that that feedback system, I was pretty reluctant initially to incorporate things like NPS scores, net promoter score, but it actually does turn out to be a really useful tool. What I like about it is you're not asking travelers to fill out like a big questionnaire at the end of every trip, which can feel a little bit cumbersome and transactional. And and really wasn't the kind of relationship we wanted to have with our with our clients. But a simple NPS survey where they just pick a number from one to ten, how likely are they to recommend that trip to another friend? And then after they pick that number on a scale of one to ten, they have a space in which to just free write whatever it is as most of the time.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

Why did you choose that number, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:43

You know, yeah, that's where I felt like, okay, now we're just getting really honest comments. And uh and then we had a system for kind of filtering through those comments and and looking through like, okay, so is this something that we could have done better, you know, or is it just something that's more about the traveler and has really nothing to do with anything that we did? Um, so we we kind of had to be able to discern about that. But giving people opportunities to be heard, uh, whether it's in the context of praise or of review or feedback or a sales question is absolutely critical to to this industry, right? We it's a service-based industry, and and so make giving people that those opportunities is essential and is is so important to building trust.

SPEAKER_00 55:31

So I think you're I think you're that's spot on because you know, anybody listening to this has been posed with a big questionnaire after they spend all this money to go on a trip. And then they get, what did you think about the accommodations? What did you think about the bathroom? What did you think about the the transfer vehicle? And it's just overwhelming. And most people probably only really have one thing that they're either really happy about or that disappointed them that they really want to talk about. And asking them about everything on the trip, and then hoping that they'll fill it out and hoping that you will be bright enough to find the one thing they really wanted to talk about is uh is is different. Where yeah, it's just like, what's the one thing? And I remember I worked uh I travel a lot in the Caribbean, and there was a lodge that I'd done some business with in Belize, and the guy that ran that place, he would just his only question, they didn't send out any questionnaires. He was there at the lodge, so every time they left, he's like, What's the one thing I could do to make this place better? Just that was it.

SPEAKER_02 56:31

That's great. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 56:34

And you felt like he was listening. So it could be like, well, you know, colder beer at the bar or more more rum drinks, or uh, you know, the the fishing guide we were with all week was kind of you know grumpy or whatever, you know, so work with them. And and you it cut down the noise because then you're only hearing what's important. So and that's what it sounds like you were doing as well. So that's why I wanted to tie that together. All right. That's cool. Somebody's gonna use that and they're gonna think of you, and then they're gonna come back. Hey, Eleanor, how many other what other things can we do be doing? I'd be happy to but also getting feedback like that, I suspect, you know, especially tracking it and you know, taking some action with it or whatever, it has to help when you go to sell a business too, because you could say, well, our net promoter scores are this and this, and generally this is the type of feedback we get. And when we get that feedback, these are how we implement the changes, and as opposed to, well, I've got a bunch of reviews. I mean, that's great too. Reviews are great. I'm not saying they're not, but it's it's just another layer. All right, that's very cool. So let's got unless you want to touch on something else before we move into it. But I think now we get to say, okay, you've got this tour business, you had this tour business, and now you're a consultant that helps other people build value in their tour businesses. So let's take the leap. How did we get from one to the other?

SPEAKER_01 57:54

Yeah, okay. Well, I'm like, where do I start with that? But I I think, you know, obviously when I think back to COVID times, you know, 2020 was brutal on the travel industry. And um, I was just really relieved that I made it through with my business intact because that was just such a tough period on a lot of travel business owners. You know, and it kind of led me to do a pivot with my company because we were mostly international trips. And then we kind of pivoted there for like a little while to mostly domestic trips. And then as international travel reopened, we, you know, reopened a lot of our international trips. And so then I had all these domestic trips and all these international trips, and you know, the demand for travel, there was so much pent-up demand, right? Yeah, yeah. That definitely helped fuel a big period of growth in my company that was really exciting, but it definitely tested me and my my capacity as a leader. And I learned a ton, made a lot of new hires, built up my team of retreat leaders and my my travel operations team, and added to my marketing team. And so it was a lot of things going on all at once. And it was kind of in the midst of that. I'm like, okay, I think I think I may have taken this as far as I intended to. Probably, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:18

I think you could have taken, I think you could have taken it further. But I I heard you want to say that as far as I want to take it. Maybe someone else can take it to the next level, huh?

SPEAKER_01 59:27

Exactly. Like I knew that there was still a lot, like this business was growing and I knew it had a huge uh future potential, but my personal priorities had kind of shifted. Um, I wanted to focus more on family, and I I just was starting to feel like I feel I felt like I had lost parts of myself in that whole process. And that my whole life really had been about running my business and it was paying off. And I I felt like, okay, this is succeeding. This is what I wanted to create, but I don't have a life outside of this. And and so it really kind of got me thinking, and so, like I said earlier, like I really started to prepare the company for sale two years before I actually did. And when I first started that that process with more intention, it I thought I was gonna sell in maybe like five or more years, but like, but you know, the burnout just kind of accelerated. And I just kind of felt like, okay, I think this is gonna have to happen sooner rather than later.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Well, I'm I'm curious, I you've experienced it. I've experienced I've I I'm not the most patient person on earth. So I'm gonna try and tie it to the analogy of just somebody working a job. Maybe they love the job, but then as soon as they decide they're gonna leave, you know. What they call it short-termers, short-timer syndrome. I remember in the army was when you were getting close to getting out, it was like, just get me out of here. So once you kind of emotionally start planning your departure, it seems like it speeds up a little bit. Does that resonate or yeah?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:00

Yeah, yeah. When I started to think about, you know, and I was working with some advisors of people that were helping me, and they were asking me, like, well, what would you do if you sold your business? And I was like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:11

I'm going to Maui. I don't know what else.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:14

I was like, oh my gosh, I was like, oh, I would take a vacation. I'm just like, no one can call me, and I could just like relax a little bit. And when I started to think about that, it just kind of like the mindset started to shift. I'm like, yeah, this has got to happen. I really am ready to to be open to new and other things, you know, and and also too, like my my son's at an age, he's 17, and he's got a lot of exciting things happening in his life. And I I wanted to be a part of that. He gets to now travel for sports, and I wanted to be able to go with him on those trips. And so, but I just felt a little too, you know, my business was pretty dependent on me. And so when I talk about like preparing my business for sale, that was really what I needed to do was to say, okay, how do I get me out of the center of this thing that I built that has become so all-consuming? And so what that really looked like was starting to look at the business as a set of systems. And then one by one, like, how do I make them operate more independently of me? So, not to say that I ever stepped out of the business altogether. I was still the CEO. I was definitely driving the ship, but it's not like every system and part depended on me every single day, because that was the part that was unsustainable.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

So that's I I I get that completely. So you said you started working on it, started preparing to sell about two years before you actually finalize the sale.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:57

And you thought it might be five years, but it ended up being two. Zach, did I get the math right?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:03

Yeah, yeah. And it's because once I get my mind on something, I like I'm an executor. I move fast and I execute. And so, so yeah, from 2022 to 2024, I'm uh yeah, focusing on taking these right actions. I develop my my plan. I I learned how to calculate business valuation and I'm working with some advisors on on how to do that. And and so then it was like early 2024. In January 2024, I was like, okay, you know what? Now's the time. So I reached out to a business broker who turned out just to be just like a great fit for me. We just clicked on a personal level, it just and he kind of said, okay, here's how this is gonna go. We're going to put together a marketing package, we're gonna take it to market. And he really tried to manage my expectations that you know, that this can take a while. That you know, it usually takes maybe 12 to 18 months before you find the right buyer, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm not sure. I'm just so ready for this next chapter. I've already decided, like, it's time for me to move on. But now because I had done kind of all this work in terms of organizing and preparing the business, I'm very proud to say that for when we went live on like live online, the business listing is for for sale, I accepted an offer 30 days later. I got an offer on the business, and then the due diligence that usually takes months and months and sometimes a year, I had all my documentation in order, and that was done in 30 days. And then 40 45 days after that, I was done. I I was able to walk away.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

And so anybody that's listening to this that owns a business and has spoken with a broker that told them the same thing, is gonna it's gonna want to get on a call with you, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

Yeah, and yeah, let's get this thing. How did how did we do that? And that's very cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:13

Did you know? As far as how was it was as far as how it was structured, did you presumably kept running the company until you handed them I'm gonna say the keys, but did you have it was part of the structure for you to stick around for a while or stay on as consultant? Or like Yeah. How did you structure that part of it? I mean, we don't need to go into all the detail. I'm just curious if at the minute it was done, you were done and you could go do whatever you wanted to do, or did you need to stick around a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:41

Well, it was really just that 45-day transition period. And the thing was, the reason why I was able to be so short was because I didn't need to stick around and train the new owner on how to do things. Because what I had done is made sure to fill, uh, or I not just fill, but I had a really strong team of employees that transferred with the business. So everyone had ownership over their departments, their roles and responsibilities were super clear. They were all working very independently. And so they all transferred and kept doing their exact same roles after the sale closed. So that and then the jobs that were still on my plate were minimal in terms of my day-to-day activities. And I had made like how-to videos, documentation for those few remaining routine tasks, uh, you know, leadership style activities. And so we didn't even need a full 45 days for me to complete that process with the new owner. They were able to pick up the reins very quickly and continue operations uninterrupted. And that was really my goal because I didn't want our customers to feel any kind of shift or interruption to the services they were receiving. And this all happened. Like during a pretty busy time of year, too. You know, we didn't wait until the slow season. It was like full-on mid season. We got trips happening in like four or five different countries. I've got, you know, field staff coming and going, uh, traveling to different places with their groups. It was all happening. And I'm really proud of how everyone handled it and that that everything kind of kept going really, really smoothly throughout that whole transition. So yeah, because I knew once the new owner took the reins, I knew that I I didn't really want to have to stay too involved and I didn't need to. So it worked really well.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

As I was listening to that, I I realized it's probably a common concern when someone is thinking about selling their business, especially these types of businesses, is what you touched on a little bit was the staff, you know, because in these small businesses, especially I think where it's about experiences and about human connections. It's, you know, it's not a a sandwich shop, it's a tour business. Um there's that I can imagine somebody that's like, man, I'd really like to get out of this, but I worry about my employees and if I sell the business and uh, you know, and the new owner doesn't like them or comes in and makes changes or whatever. But then I also imagine there's buyers that are like, well, geez, what if I buy this business and then the whole staff picks up and and leaves to go work for the competition? So that has to be a big part of this conversation. So what would you say to the person that's listening to this, thinking the the seller that, or not, yeah, the seller that's hearing this that's like, I would have sold my business four years ago, but I worry about my staff. What would you say to is there a way to address that? Like, what do you say to that person?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:48

Yeah, I mean, so it there's a number of things that that's so important to that. And and it's it really depends on kind of what your culture is in the company. Um, but being really clear about what your individual key employees' motivations are, like how do they see their future in your company? What do they want to get out of that? Is like to them, is it just a job, or is it something where they are hoping to grow with the company?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:15

Do they have ambitions to maybe they're hoping maybe they're hoping to own the company. Maybe they were hoping that they would be offered the opportunity to exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:25

And so that's why it's really important that you, as the owner, know uh that about kind of your key employees so that you can kind of anticipate how they may react to the news if you're selling, or that there's gonna be some other kind of like leadership change. Because you know how like people are gonna first and foremost think, how does this affect me as an employee? And so and then looking for opportunities to take your existing team that that maybe the people who are performing well and have, you know, a good handle on how things work, is there an opportunity to to elevate that person to more of a managerial role? Does that person would they would they be able to step up into higher levels of responsibility with your support for for them to develop those skills to become a manager so that when the business transfers over to a new owner, they have that job security because then the the seller can say to that buyer, like, hey, look, I've got a really strong management team. They know the ins and outs of this business, and they're going to, you know, they're some of our best assets, basically.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:32

So do you do you do that in a way like do you go to Bob? He's your he's like, he's super rock star. He could probably run the business if given the opportunity. Do you go to Bob and say, hey Bob, I'm thinking about I'm planning to sell the business and I want to, you know, work with you to have it work really well for you as well, either in a management role, or maybe even you have a conversation with Bob about Bob buying the business before you go put it on online somewhere. But that could also backfire.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:03

Yeah, I mean, there's risk in there. So it really depends on the situation. It may or may not be wise to divul the fact that you're thinking of selling. Um, because yeah, you there's a number of different ways that could play out. So, so in a lot of cases, employees are not informed of the sale beforehand. But then in other instances, yes, maybe you know, the the the future owner of the business is someone who's already working in the business. So yeah, it just kind of depends on the situation.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:38

And you know, what would ease if I was an employee and I woke up on Tuesday morning and found out wow, Eleanor sold the business. There's two scenarios. One is go back five years earlier when when it was go ask Eleanor. I'm not sure what we need to do. Ask Eleanor, ask Eleanor, ask Eleanor. You sell the business when the business is running that way, that's scary.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:00

Well, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:01

But when the when the business has all these systems in place where everybody knows what they're supposed to do, and Eleanor just shows up for the Christmas party, that's an exaggeration, of course. But then it's like, okay, well, Eleanor, you know, she's organized, she's put systems in place, she's uh leveraged herself across the team. So it's not things are not likely to turn into a train wreck three days after the business sells. So that's another benefit of coming up with a plan, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:27

Yeah, exact exactly. And and that's the thing, is is the the last thing any seller would want is for an employee to take an action or to to do something that that causes the deal to collapse, which I mean, I guess it could happen, but yeah, you it that's why that planning and and being really thoughtful about all the different aspects of it is really important and it's worth investing that that time and energy in the business.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:53

So it's a little bit more complicated than selling a house. You said it was a good analogy, but there's there's a few different levels there.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:59

That all right. So so cool. So you've been through it, you've had the experience, you've done that, and that's I guess at what point did you decide open air consulting was the path? Did you fit did you already know that before you finished selling the business, or did that come up later when you're like, you know? Yeah. Well, I learned a lot, I can help people.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:18

Well, exactly. I think I definitely knew that pretty early on. Um, I took a nice long sabbatical right after the sale. So I'm like, don't need to work for a while. This is nice. And so I just kind of needed that career break, which was great. But yeah, I I as an entrepreneur, I just couldn't imagine going back to working for someone else. It's like I did that earlier in my career, but I just don't, I cannot imagine working for someone else.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:44

So and I cannot imagine you not working, just based on the conversation I've had with you so far. You're you're obviously driven and you like to be involved and like to be part of part of things that are happening. So I I I get that.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:57

So yeah, yeah, definitely was not ready. If people keep joking, like, oh, so are you retired now? I'm like, oh my God, are you kidding? I'd go crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:05

I feel so yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:07

And then this is fun. Like now I I try I try to approach business, you know, whereas before, you know, I the reason why I got so burnt out running my company was because it just felt like I could never just stop and coast. It was like there was always kind of a new, a new threshold to break through. There was always kind of a new challenge to address, like there was always something, and I just felt like I could never just like enjoy, enjoy it, except for that last those, that last year there, I actually got to well, I still owned a business, so I actually did get to take a European vacation and go and travel with my son.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:42

And I was like, Because because you took all the time to set it up to where you didn't have to be there anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:50

Exactly. I had I had done the prep work, it it could run without me.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:55

So you and I I know you I know you heard what you just said. I heard what you just said, but what I heard you say is even if you don't want to sell your business, even if you can't imagine selling your business, gosh, wouldn't it be nice if you didn't have to be there all the time?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:10

Yeah, you just have the freedom to be like, oh gee, I need to step away for a while, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:16

So so you don't just advise people on how to sell their business, how to get their business ready to sell. You you can the same exact advice would help them free up their time and their have freedom to go do things and enjoy, maybe actually enjoy their business, right? Is that an accurate statement?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:32

Absolutely. It should be enjoyable. It doesn't have to be all consuming, you know. And now that I can I have that perspective, I can see it like more clearly. And that's why I love doing the work I do now. You know, I see it as more of a creative process. It's not about making every business a cookie-cutter. It's not trying to say your business sees to fit this model or you we're going to you know shoehorn it into a certain structure. It's it definitely should always be a creative expression of the owner, the founder's kind of values and philosophy and passions. And that never has to go away, but there's also a way to just make it also more fun, even as it grows and becomes more complex. And there's more uh, you know, there's kind of more consequences and risk involved as a business grows, but it can it can still be fun. It still can be rewarding. And it uh and so I love kind of going on that journey with business owners that are curious about what that could look like for them.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:39

Because you said, well, the last year it wasn't bad. I was able to go on a European vacation and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:46

So I have to ask, was there a point after you did the sale where you're like, you know, the last year was actually not bad? Maybe I could have, maybe I could have just kept the company and and ran it that way for a while. Was there a point where you regretted it?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:02

Yes. And I've since learned that I think the statistic is 80 or 90 percent of business owners post-acquisition say the same thing. They also I really wish I had wait, waited or done it differently, or they have some kind of regret, you know. And so yeah, that's pretty common because it's you see it differently once you have a little bit of distance from you know what could be like the biggest transaction of your life for some people, you know, you you look back and see it differently, you know, when it's all said and done.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:37

I bet the numbers are similar for people that retire. Yeah, you know, they maybe they work a career for 30 years and they get offered an early retirement package or whatever, and they take it and then they're like, geez, I kind of kind of miss having gollies or whatever it is. You know, I miss identity is a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:57

It's huge.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:58

Yeah. Like my my mom, she's not gonna listen to this anyway. I keep trying to get her to listen to these, but she went, you know, worked in academia and was the chair of a school of physical therapy, a doctoral program. She had that was her identity. You know, it was her, her dogs, and her job, her career. And when she retired, it's like, you know, it just it's like now her identity is retired. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. A lot of people really look forward to that. But identity can be a big thing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:29

Like I'm a I'm an adventure tour operator. I lead tours and I take groups, and I've got these employees that do this amazing job, and and I get to read reviews from people that are happy. We've changed lives. And now I'm retired. And I'm not saying that you went there, but because you didn't, because uh obviously you're still working. But yeah, I can I get that.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:49

Yeah, yeah. I get that. But my work now, my pace of of work is so different now, you know, and part of that is intentional, but also too, like this this work isn't as all consuming as running a whole company with a whole team. But uh yeah, it definitely was kind of this feeling of loss for a little bit. And I think it's really important to as I kind of help go on this journey with with business owners, is to to help them prepare for kind of the the identity shifts and the the feelings of of loss that come up. Because yes, you get paid out, or at least you you get an agreement that you will be paid over time or whatever the terms are, you know, but then you start to realize just how how big of a part of your identity the business was and what that means for you now. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:39

Yeah, yeah. I I get that. We could keep, I I've got some stories. I know you've got stories we could probably keep going on about that all all day. I also want to, so somebody's listening to this that's like, yeah, that sounds cool. It's probably something I should think about, but I'm not ready to hire someone. I like I don't even know what that looks like. And this is not an infomercial, but somebody's listening to this. And so I think it would be good for you to share with them what would you suggest if somebody's just kind of pointing around at the idea, would like to have a conversation, but doesn't feel like they're ready to actually hire anybody or do anything, would would you still encourage them to reach out on your website or or do you have other resources they should look at? Or what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:20

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I love just having these conversations and helping business owners understand maybe where they are in terms of their business development and and just where to start. And and often that conversation starts with them wanting to know what is what is my business worth today? So I do have a free self-assessment on my website uh that people can take. And that can be just a good starting point because it gives them like a 17-page analysis of the business based on the data that they can provide. And then they we can set up a call where we can get on the phone and we can go through that together and just make sure that we have a mutual understanding of like what this means and and what your path might look like from this point in your business development. So that's on my website, which is openairconsulting.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:12

So that sounds really good for somebody that feels they're organized and they're emotionally ready to see numbers that maybe many of them just totally have avoided for 20 years. I'm not sure I want to know what my business is worth because it could be depressing. It could be sad or whatever. But somebody that's that's organized and is really thinking about it and is willing to sit down and do that. Do you also, is there other ways for people to connect with you just to, hey Eleanor, I just have a quick question. Like I have this idea in my head that I can't sell my business because my because I don't know, my my brother-in-law is the manager, whatever. And they just want to bounce an idea off somebody. Is that is there a way for them to connect with you that way? Or I just trying to do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:58

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I I hang out on LinkedIn uh where they could they can find me. And also too, I'm members of a I'm member of a couple of different communities as well, the Adventure Travel Trade Association. So I chat with people on the community hub there. So when you're a member of that organization, um you you're on the hub. And also women travel leaders online community as well. So if you're a member of that organization, you can also reach out to me at Women Travel Leaders in the online community.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:29

All right, very cool. And I suspect just because we're going to have your website link right in the show notes. If I click that, they'll probably be able to figure the rest of that out in different ways to connect with you. We discussed a bunch of things, and I told you before I hit the record button that I would give you an opportunity. If there's anything I forgot to ask you or wish that I had asked you, you'd have an opportunity. So is there anything else kind of still lingering that that we didn't touch on that you want to touch on before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:55

Oh gosh, I think we covered a lot, Jason. That's just really fun. Like you kind of took me on a journey down memory lane, you know. So those are really fun to kind of reflect on, you know, all the things, you know, that have kind of led me to do this work now. So I so I think I think we're good.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:12

It's so much fun for me. I just feel so grateful every time I have a conversation like this. I'm like, that's pretty cool. I got to, you know, spend an hour, hour and a half having a conversation with somebody that's really interesting and in a lot of ways very similar. Because we're all like, we all have our own little paths, but they're all kind of the same in a way. We all just kind of relate to to each other in this in this space, and that's so much fun. So thanks for thanks for taking time to share that with me. And uh, look forward to staying connected with you in the future. Thank you so much, Omar.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:45

Thank you. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:46

Have a great day.

unknown 1:23:47

Bye.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:47

You too.