Adventure Travel with Simon Grove - Simon Grove Travel

Simon Grove
Company Owner
Simon Grove Travel

Having travelled extensively across Europe Simon embarked on an epic overland journey from London to Kathmandu via Nairobi in the mid-90s. Upon his return, he found his calling in the travel industry and joined Explore Worldwide as a tour leader.

Over the past three decades, he's worked in adventure, luxury, tailor-made, small group tour operators and has even planned, built and operated a luxury yurt camp in Iceland. His focus has always been to build sustainable travel experiences that forge meaningful connections between travellers and their destinations, uncovering the authentic side of each country. The majority of his career was at Explore Worldwide, where he became Product Director leading a team responsible for the planning, contracting, and operations of all trips.

Always looking for the next challenge - Simon recently set up his own travel consultancy and now works with worldwide DMCs helping them gain access to tour operators and increase sales.

summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Simon Grove, a seasoned travel expert and owner of Simon Grove Travel. Simon shares his journey from a small town in Northeast England to becoming a tour leader and travel industry professional. He discusses the transformative experiences of overland truck travel, the evolution of adventure tourism, and the importance of shared experiences in travel. Simon emphasizes the privilege and responsibility of traveling, the changing perceptions of the travel industry, and the impact of family support on his career. The conversation highlights the value of group travel, the psychology behind tour leading, and the lessons learned from diverse travel experiences.

takeaways

• Travel can be a life-changing experience.
• The overland truck journey opened Simon's eyes to the world.
• Group travel fosters shared experiences and connections.
• Traveling provides a deeper understanding of different cultures.
• Family support is crucial in pursuing a travel career.
• Adventure tourism has evolved significantly over the years.
• The travel industry has changed perceptions and opportunities.
• Tour leading requires earning trust and respect from the group.
• Travel is a privilege that should be appreciated.
• Shared experiences enhance the travel journey.

Learn more about Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Marketing and join our private community to get episode updates, special access to our guests, and exclusive adventure travel offers on our website.

Transcript

Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. So happy to have each and every one of you back here today. We've got a wonderful guest today. Some of you may recognize his name right off the bat. He's been in this industry for an awful long time and has has touched a lot of travelers, a lot of a lot of people in his business. And so happy to have Simon Grove.

Simon is the owner of Simon Grove Travel. We're going to discuss some of the other things that he's done that you might make the connections with. But Simon, so happy to have you on the show. Welcome.

Simon Grove (02:37.158)
Thanks Jason, I'm delighted to be on the show, I'm delighted to be on the podcast.

Jason Elkins (02:42.149)
What's really nice to have you on here. Last time we spoke was, was quite a while ago and, immediately it was like, man, I gotta get this guy in the show. So I appreciate your, your patience with my persistence and, getting back and connecting. know you've had a lot of things happen in here last few months that we may even touch on. Simon, tell us where are you, where are you calling from? I mean, we're doing a video call, but where are you right now?

Simon Grove (03:05.606)
I'm in South England, I'm not too far off Heathrow Airport, so I live in the south east of England, not just west of London, in a place called Canberley.

Jason Elkins (03:13.445)
Okay, Kimberly. And so the very next question maybe is going to answer the question that I just had popped into my head. But I guess the you know, what I really want to know Simon is I want to know what you're doing. But I really want to know kind of how you got from where you were to where you are now. I don't know if that goes all the way back to Kimberly. I don't know if you're born and raised there. But how far back in history should we go to kind of get a feel for who you are as a person and what shaped your life into doing this kind of work?

Simon Grove (03:40.37)
And I think we'd probably go back to the mid nineties when I never heard of Cambly. I'm originally from the northeast of England. So any English listeners today will notice I've got a slightly different accent. They'll think he's not from Cambly. I'm from the northeast of England, from a little town in County Durham and sort of grew up, went to university, wasn't then sure what I wanted to do. And actually the village I was from, nobody traveled. It was, it's a very sort of

working class traditional village and at that time no nobody traveled and I decided I wanted to travel and I actually went to a I went to sort of just a travel show of an overland truck came to a place they may went to see it looked at it so it sort of showed that I've got to do that and so I ended up taking a bit of a plunge and doing a journey I went from London to Kathmandu via Nairobi in an overland truck and I basically signed up for an expedition with Encounter Overland and was away for it was about six months

expedition which took us started off in London went down the west coast of Africa through central Africa and up east Africa across the middle east and through Asia. Which I mean it was an was an amazing trip and as a culmination of that trip I ended in Kathmandu then traveled on to Thailand, China took the trans Siberian back from Beijing back basically back to home and came back and thought yeah I want to work in travel.

Thought I've got to do, I've got to work in travel, that'd be on that. And so I was looking around, saw a few jobs for a tour leader and I thought that's what I really want to do. I want to lead trips. Had a couple of interviews and ended up working for Explore Worldwide and that was probably 1996. And this probably quite naive boy from the Northeast of England set out on a journey, which has been incredible. know, tour leading, starting for tour leading, probably.

best job I've ever done, the hardest job I've ever done, the most rewarding job I've ever done, and a job that's really set me up for life. I'm always pleased. And actually, this is a true story, and it's also happened to somebody else I know, but how I got to Explore Worldwide, I was traveling on a train, and as people did, someone had left a newspaper on the train, and I started to read the paper, and I saw an advert for Explore Worldwide wanting tour leaders.

Simon Grove (06:05.486)
in that newspaper so ripped it out and called it when I got home so that's how I got into my traveling career.

Jason Elkins (06:11.597)
Wow, so many questions. Probably the first one is what I heard you say as I went to a show, a travel show, and there was an Overland truck and I'm envisioning like there's a truck park there ready to go. Like, let's get on. I want to learn more about the Overland truck. I've heard about it a bit, but what you just described to me, I think a lot of our listeners and myself included really would like to kind of understand that more. What's and I'm not sure where to start with the questions.

Simon Grove (06:19.792)
Yep.

Simon Grove (06:40.006)
Well, it was a travel show. Yeah, an overlap truck. It was an old sort of an ex British Army truck, a Bedford truck that was painted bright orange. And it sort of turned up in a in a small sort of small exhibition center and in a place called Newcastle. they just, you know, there was adverts which went out, you know, it was advertised, you're interested in travel, you want to change your life.

Jason Elkins (06:41.485)
Explain Overland Truck.

Simon Grove (07:06.446)
We've got one of our trucks in Newcastle on X Day come along and see it. And so I went along to the the the sort of exhibition. I exhibition, it was it was one company that had a truck sort of parked in a hole. Went to see it, looked at the truck. was, you know, the ex British Army truck that had been modified to carry camping equipment. It had a trailer where you could put things in. It was probably very simple. The modifications it was.

And there was was was room for 18 people sort of sat in the back facing each other. So basically a row of seats. When I say row of seats, it's like a bench that went down either side of the back, faced each other. And yeah, that became my so I saw it. So one, I want to do that. Took a bit of time to save up to save up for the expedition. And then, you know, booked booked the date. I think it was the I think it was about probably nine months from seeing it to actually leave and.

I think I left early February 95 from London on a very similar took to what I'd seen.

Jason Elkins (08:12.591)
That's very, very cool. I'm happy I asked for clarification because what I was imagining was not quite what you just described. So it could accommodate 18 people, that 18 guests or does that include some of the guides and staff or what does that look like?

Simon Grove (08:16.025)
Yeah.

Cool.

Simon Grove (08:27.662)
So it had one driver, there was one driver on the trip who I mean did an absolutely remarkable job. know, and his job was the leader, but he looked after the money and he distributed. was obviously, we'd all made, as part of the payments, there was contribution, your food was included. So he would allocate the money, look after the money, he'd do the driving, he'd do the mechanical repairs. He would...

He'd probably deal with any issues that came up and there's many, many issues crossing borders or within Africa. he did. I mean, was it sort of you look back now and it's unbelievable that there was one driver on that trip who did all of that. I mean, when he got sick, was sick. He still. were initially we were initially together, so that driver took us from London down to Nairobi. So that was around about probably the three to four month mark. And then it was another.

Jason Elkins (09:11.277)
And how long how long were you guys together? Six months, right?

Simon Grove (09:24.39)
of probably another three months to get we had another driver that took us to to to Kathmandu but yeah I mean when we got to Nairobi the original driver I think it was absolutely shattered but yeah but but as part of the trip what happened on the tree so you had the driver sort of the driver the leader where but as as a group as a group of 18 and people on that there's people on that group from you know from Switzerland, Holland, the United Kingdom, Canada

the USA, Australia, people have come from all over the world on it. And the first night you have a meeting, allocate jobs, who's going to do this, who's going to do that for the first few weeks. So one person's job was to load the baggage on every night or every morning you pack the baggage, they would load it on a night. Another person's job, were in charge of the fire. That was a job I really wanted that didn't get initially set on fire every day. And then I think I got allocated probably

a topical job now with sustainability. was waste management. So it was my job to get rid of the rubbish every day, which a couple of us had. So everyone had jobs. And you would cook as a team. were in pairs. every, probably every just every nine days, you would be cooking for that day for everybody, which some people were good cooks, some people weren't so good cooks. And you realize there's a lot of lot of morale around food with travel. So there's

Jason Elkins (10:47.013)
You

Simon Grove (10:49.766)
some days we didn't look forward to but yeah it was good it was was sort of you know was a life genuinely a life-changing experience where we made a lot of friends you know you can imagine living in such close quarters over you know sort of an elongated time and yeah it was it was brilliant it was brilliant.

Jason Elkins (11:12.099)
It kind of sounds like not quite, but kind of sounds like a bunch of people. was, I was going to say guys, a bunch of guys getting together and renting an apartment. So they all kind of pitch in on the rent, but then obviously things need to happen around the house. And I can imagine a lot of opportunity for conflict and, you guys are like actually moving and dealing with changing environments, changing things every day for a long time. Wow.

Simon Grove (11:37.77)
Yeah, yeah. And it was all was all camping as well. So it was was camping throughout. I'm to, you know, occasionally occasionally there'd be a chance to sort of check into sort of a room on a on a campsite. But it was camping throughout. It was was tough. You know, the conditions, you know, sort of setting up tent every night. Perhaps in Central Africa, it's wet. You set up tent, you're having food and you've got to cook that. It was it was tough. It was great fun. And actually, see

You say about conflict and I'm trying to think, think there's probably, you know, every now and then there'd be a small irritant, but considering we're all people who didn't know each other, there was very little conflict. was no big arguments and there was nothing which sort of, you know, sits in my mind as, yeah, that was awful. We all fell out for months and weeks. was, you know, perhaps one day somebody would do something, it'd be slightly irritating and it was over. It was really good.

Jason Elkins (12:33.669)
You know, in kind of in a lot of the tourism industry now we talk a lot about different types of travelers. We've got backpackers and what I'm hearing is, is would you know what you know? Would you classify the type of people that would go on a trip like this kind of like backpackers is, mean, is there a significant difference between a backpacker and somebody that would go on a trip like this?

Simon Grove (12:55.046)
I think, I mean, there are overland companies that do it now and I definitely class them as backpackers. think in, when I did it in the mid 90s, think it was, know, travel was a lot harder then. It was harder to get to places. It was more difficult. So I think it was a variety. mean, everybody lived out of a backpack, but I think it was, it was for the curious really. It gave a chance to go to countries you could never ever go to sort of yourself. think, you know,

I use the word expedition before it at the time. I didn't think of it as an expedition at all. It was sort of like a holiday. It was a truck holiday. It was a truck trip. Now I look back and think, that was really that was a bit of an expedition that I think it was. Yeah, probably not quite backpacking. I think it was a bit tougher than backpacking. And it was the other thing about it was it was it was really about the journey. You didn't spend a lot of time in places. You know, it was about the.

The driver had a schedule. You have to be in Nairobi on a certain day. And some of the road conditions, especially in central Africa, were appalling. You know, the truck would have difficulties. He'd have to fix something and you've continually got to make up, know, get that time. So it wasn't the trip where, you know, a backpacker might spend a week in a place and get there. I I love this. was right. We're here, you know, sometimes two nights in a place and otherwise we're going. It's constantly, constantly on the go.

Jason Elkins (14:23.119)
Okay, all right. That's that's pretty fascinating. Thank you for sharing that with as somebody that I don't know if that's a more common thing in Europe at why you suspect it is. mean, I know you can, there's long routes that you can take here in the Americas, but I've honestly never even heard of an expedition truck.

Simon Grove (14:27.023)
Yeah.

Simon Grove (14:39.182)
Yeah, I think that it was it had its it was very, very popular in the sort of the 80s and 90s. It was, you know, the the truck trips. It was the stuff from the UK, the hippie trail. It was London to Kathmandu was a traditional one where there'd be trucks that go sort of, you know, drive along. this one just had a little bit of a little bit of a diversion. But, you know, they were quite popular. It's it's also it was a really good value way to get through a destination as well. You know, it was

Jason Elkins (14:52.997)
yep, okay.

Simon Grove (15:08.27)
It was a cost effective way to go and see the world, but it was a cost effective way to go and see parts of the world that you would never get the chance to see. And I think, think nowadays, I think the, the overland trucks, I know they still exist at 10 year, they go through South Africa, Central Asia seems to be a really popular spot for them at the moment, you know, doing the, going across the five stands, but, they're still there. And I say, I think the trucks are a bit more luxurious than they were in those days. but for anybody thinking of it, I would really recommend it. It's good fun.

Jason Elkins (15:38.997)
No, it sounds fascinating. I've heard of like, you know, the cross Africa stuff and I guess it's the same thing, but your journey was quite a, quite a long one. That's very cool. I'm happy. Happy. discussed that. And I'm curious. I want to go back to right before that. Cause it sounds like what you were doing. Refresh my memory just a little bit. Like you were going to school, you finished school and then you went and did this.

Simon Grove (15:42.896)
Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Grove (16:01.078)
I went to school and I went to university. So I did a degree university. I studied combined studies, which was a bizarre combination of law and biology. It was less the polytechnic than it was in the UK, we call it. So I did a three year degree course. think one of the probably issues I had when I was younger, I could never decide what I wanted to do. I know that

Jason Elkins (16:06.221)
What and what were you studying?

Simon Grove (16:29.222)
Kids often don't know what they want to do and kids often have a, but you know, I've got two kids, 14 and 11 now, they don't know what they want to do, apart from be footballers. That will change. But I think as you know, as my peer group got older, they all decided what they wanted to do at some point and people went in the direction. And I just, I just couldn't decide. And I sort of, you know, I think the epiphany moment for me was doing that journey, which came after sort of three years at university, then a couple of years.

working doing some quite sort of manual basic jobs just think I just don't know what I want to do and I you know I want and then I knew I wanted to travel that's what I said the other thing I knew I wanted to travel and a lot of my you know a lot of my travel I travel around the UK an awful lot and I travel around Europe an awful lot in the at time and you know football's a big sport in in England and I had a local football team that I used to support I used to travel all over the country watching them so I really got there and you know

People sometimes say really watching football, but I really got the travel bug from going to, you know, on a, a, on a, a supporters coach from the Northeast traveling. I mean, went to all over the country watching football and then I then went to Europe to watch it. So it was, you know, in many ways football got me into, into, into travel as well.

Jason Elkins (17:47.525)
It's interesting, you know, I've noticed in just having so many conversations here on the podcast, it seems like a common thread. You know, lot of the folks that I speak with that are now doing this type of work kind of went through a similar thing. They just really couldn't figure out what they want to do. They maybe started out doing whatever mom and dad or somebody else suggested they do. And it just wasn't doing it for them. And then, wow, all of sudden this, this world just opens up in front of them.

Simon Grove (18:01.817)
No.

Simon Grove (18:06.502)
Hmm.

Jason Elkins (18:15.061)
And it's interesting because I think if I were to interview a bunch of, you know, financial analysts or lawyers or people like that, I don't think very many of them would say, well, you know, when I was younger, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And so I finally, you know, I found law and my gosh, it was amazing or, whatever. think they, I think they kind of had their head straight a little bit sooner. I shouldn't say it that way. It was maybe a little easier for them to find their path because society.

Simon Grove (18:32.197)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (18:42.009)
doesn't do a great job of offering adventure tourism type of stuff as a, as a legitimate career opportunity. You know, the high school counselor is very unlikely to sit down with one of the students and say, well, I don't know. Have you ever thought about being a tour guide or running expeditions? you know, to the, I don't know. It's, yeah, kind of common thread.

Simon Grove (19:02.054)
No, that's and I think I think traveling. I think there was actually a little bit of a stigma of working in the travel industry as well back in this sort of when I joined in the mid 90s, especially in the UK. You know, was it was seen as all the travel industry. you know, there's, you know, and again, I've got ultimate respect for travel agents, but most people's perception of the travel industry is a travel agent and walking into a shop on the high street and saying I want to book, you know, a two week holiday to Spain.

as cheap as I can and I think that was the perception. I travel was seen as a... I think there was a bit of a stigma to just saying I work. Often if you said I work in travel, you would have to justify what I do. No, I'm not traveling. I don't just sell package holidays out of a brochure. I do this and I do that. But I think that's thankfully gone now.

Jason Elkins (19:53.155)
Why I think that's right. Because who do people see, you know, especially things are changing a little bit now, but back then, who do people see that work in the travel? It's the travel agent. And again, there's nothing, I mean, I would rather be a travel agent than a stockbroker or a, you know, any number, any number of jobs, but it, and there's travel agents out there that travel a lot as well. But the perception may be from people that aren't, aren't involved in the industry. You say travel, they see a travel agent sitting in a

Simon Grove (19:58.822)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Simon Grove (20:08.87)
100 %

Simon Grove (20:13.382)
Hmm.

Simon Grove (20:22.246)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (20:23.715)
You know, it used to be a mall, shopping mall or an office somewhere in front of a computer screen doing that all day. And they can't even, it's hard to imagine that people could be doing the type of things that, you know, you and I have, I've been doing over the years and it's, yeah, it's kind of too bad.

Simon Grove (20:38.63)
Yeah. And I had my friends in whenever I went back to the North East, sometimes I'd be away for eight months or nine months and I'd go up there and I would see them. You you'd walk in there and they'd almost say, all right, where have you been? Kind of thing. You need to explain to them. right. That sounds like, you you're missing. Then they'd say, you missed a good weekend last weekend. You it's like, you you did what you do every weekend. But I think people could not get the concept of what it was. You know, it's like, you know, especially the tour leading, you know.

people just didn't get it. People didn't get it. you say, you know, and the other thing I would say is what I mean, you know, travel was also, it was very poorly paid in the mid nineties. I think a lot of people are in travel, especially in the UK. So it was, you know, it was, it wasn't the profession that people would necessarily want to go in because it was, you know, it was, for the most part was poorly paid. And then the other part with the adventure travel, you know, we have to say that, you know,

There's a massive proportion of people who travel who have no idea what, who had no idea at the time what adventure travel was, what cultural travel was, what small group travel was. They just didn't know. And thankfully, you can see now that the Explore was the company that I've spent most of my working career at. But you can see that companies like Explore, what they were doing 30, 35, 40 years ago is

is the way that people want to travel now. know, the dial has changed. So people are looking and thinking, yeah, that's how we should travel. We should travel in a way that benefits communities. know, what we when we travel, we know we want to do more because again, when I was young, people basically traveled from England. I mean, the whole purpose was you went somewhere that was hot, but like England. So, you know, people would want to eat English food, drink English beer.

but it's hot, it's not going to rain. then, you know, again, think now more people are much more willing to travel to places where, know, we want to experience the local culture, which has always been important to me.

Jason Elkins (22:40.537)
Yeah, no, I agree completely. I things have certainly, I mean, we're, you and I are sitting here having a conversation on the adventure travel podcast. I'm not tooting the adventure of my podcast. I've just, you know, the conversation is out there and the people are interested in it. And, we've got an organization, you know, adventure travel trade association. We've got all these organizations that are, that, you know, it's kind of a, kind of a big deal now. Fortunately it is because I honestly believe that type of experiential travel really does help.

Simon Grove (22:48.996)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (23:10.885)
you know, the world in many ways. I mean, we've got challenges we need to, to, to, be careful that we're not overdoing it in certain areas, that type of thing. But, I think it's pretty good thing. All right. So let's, actually I do. You kind of touched on, you know, some friends back home and stuff and attitudes around this type of work, but I'm curious specifically your family, your close, like even when you got on that truck to take off for months to, you know, travel all over the place.

Simon Grove (23:13.178)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (23:40.751)
They just think you're total crazy. Were they supportive? What kind of support did you get from them?

Simon Grove (23:46.874)
and I they were very supportive and actually my parents you know I look back now and think of how supportive they were what I did was so unusual from where I came from it was such a sort it was such a mad thing and you know having left university and you know potted around not deciding what to do I think yeah I look back now and think of how supportive they were and how encouraging they were and it was it was

I talk about it now as I went to it, went to sort of, you know, I saw a truck and I said I was going to go on it. It was a massive, massive step to make that step from, you know, from me, from personally, you know, there's a lot of barriers. There's a lot of reasons not to do it. And, you know, I had the support of my parents to, you know, if that's what you want to do, which, yeah, I probably didn't appreciate that much at the time. I didn't appreciate that as much at the time. I just thought they were pleased because I went to university.

Jason Elkins (24:41.199)
Well and sometimes.

Simon Grove (24:42.606)
Yeah, I went to university, then I came home and I lived in home and I just thought they were just pleased to get rid of me so you can go anywhere. So yeah, do it. But they were really supportive.

Jason Elkins (24:52.517)
Well, it's, it's, it's interesting because sometimes, you know, just if you think about if a parent goes up, maybe like your parents, like that's way outside the box, doing what you did is way outside the box. They would never imagine that for themselves. They wouldn't imagine that for their children. So then when their child comes up and says, Hey, this is what I'm going to do or what I want to do. Sometimes just not saying no is supportive.

Simon Grove (25:05.19)
Mm-hmm.

Simon Grove (25:18.553)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (25:19.609)
because many parents would do that. Many parents would absolutely try and talk them out of it. You cannot go. What are you going to do? They're going to create all these fears. If you do this, you're never going to have a family because whatever, you know, all these, these fear based things that they could share with their, their child to keep them from taking action. So sometimes you can, I would imagine a lot of people, if they just don't say anything negative, like that might be hard and they're just, they're giving you, they're not necessarily saying, my gosh, this is amazing. You should go do it.

Simon Grove (25:43.526)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (25:48.377)
But if they're not saying this is horrible idea, you're going to throw your life away. Then, you know, there's a lot of different levels of support. And as we get older and more mature and we understand what it's like to have children of our own, we realize, maybe they were a lot more supportive than I thought, because they didn't just say no.

Simon Grove (26:04.582)
Yeah, and I think in, I say back in, I agree with that. think back in those days as well, it was a really big thing. It was a massive big thing that there was a lot of unknowns, know, contact, know, my contact with my parents was basically, you know, post-resonance around the world. I would go and I'd get a letter from them. You you're hanging around for a lot. That was it. You know, the phones, calls were expensive. There wasn't much, but also I'd never traveled, I mean, in Europe.

Jason Elkins (26:06.201)
I don't know.

Simon Grove (26:30.51)
It's very different to the States of traveling. know, everybody travels overseas in Europe, everybody, know, from England, it's easy to get anywhere. But I'd never been overseas with my parents. I'd never been on a foreign holiday with them. I'd actually been away when I went to university. I went on holiday with some friends, but it wasn't like I was a massively experienced traveler. I just had this real yearning. I just want to do that. I really want to do that. know, there's there's some sort of really...

Jason Elkins (26:35.013)
Mm-hmm.

Simon Grove (26:57.542)
sort of interesting triggers, I think, when you look back at why I wanted to do it. I can I can still remember, you know, I can still remember as a kid at school, at junior school, having a visit from a chap from Canada that came over and was going around the schools, telling them about Canada. And he brought a kayak in and, just it's like those stories you actually call that. And I can still remember now. And I'm looking at 46 years ago.

Mr. Yakimo from Canada came over and spoke to us. It was just like, wow, I was transfixed. you know, my granddad gave us a book that had something about the Himba in the tribes in Namibia and just saying, So I had this real yearning to travel, but I'm not, you know, people would say, where does it come from? Because you didn't travel with your parents, know, nobody really. I think it's just something which is within you, isn't it? That whole discovery. that for me, it it was this real journey of discovery.

Yeah, they're not saying no. And I know, actually speaking, especially to my father later, they were worried sick. They were absolutely worried sick when I left home. know, sort of beyond worry almost, but they never showed it.

Jason Elkins (28:01.701)
yeah.

Jason Elkins (28:10.499)
Yeah, you bring up a good point because you know, it's I've got I've been traveling full time for the last three years and had traveled quite a bit in the business, but now I'm traveling full time for three years. But you know what? My mom, when I want to talk to my mom, we've got a regularly scheduled WhatsApp call WhatsApp video call once a week. It's no big deal. You know, so I'm sure that helps her deal with the fact that I'm know, quite a ways away. I'm in Columbia right now. And so things have definitely changed there.

Simon Grove (28:25.808)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (28:38.965)
And there was something else that you had kind of mentioned in there that got me thinking about different personality styles, because as we know, everybody, you know, there's a wide range of personality styles. I there's whether, you know, you, you were a big follower of the Myers Briggs personality assessment or not. They've they've come up there's 16 different personality styles.

And I'm pretty sure that if you took most of the folks like myself and you and other people I've interviewed on the show or other people that I've worked with in the past, I think there's a pretty good chance we're all kind of sitting on one very distinct point of that, you know, of those 16. probably, 80 % of us probably share one of those 16, you know, the same one of those 16. And it's that, that just that curiosity and just that desire to connect and just.

Simon Grove (29:27.515)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (29:28.697)
What some people might call ADHD or that inability to sit still and do the same thing over and over and over. I'm curious. At have you had points in your life where you kind of felt like maybe if you didn't have that wanderlust in that? Well, let's let's go back to this. We started the conversation with how great this has been for you. It's been life changing and you've created amazing life for yourself. And I get that. And I also recognize with my personality when maybe there's a similarity.

Simon Grove (29:31.248)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (29:58.063)
there's some times that I've thought, you know, life would be a lot easier if I could have just been that person to sit in one place and, you know, work in a more traditional industry. Would that have made life easier for me in my relationships with that of just made my life a little easier because I wasn't constantly thinking about where I wanted to go next and what I wanted to do. Did you ever have moments where you kind of wished you were normal?

Simon Grove (30:23.982)
I don't think I did. Yeah. I don't think I did. And I think, you know, I met my wife traveling. So we traveling. So we met and then we, when we were, you know, first initial since our relationship, we traveled a lot together when I worked in the UK. Every, I mean, I never took a holiday. Again, we're lucky in England. We get more holidays than people get in the States and Canada. we, you we never, there wasn't one day that we, I never took a holiday from work just to be off for the day.

Jason Elkins (30:25.541)
I shouldn't say it that way, but you know what mean.

Simon Grove (30:53.38)
It was always we're going to go somewhere. You know, we did some mad things like went to China for a long weekend because we could went to Sri Lanka for a long weekend. But I think, yeah, I never, you know, and that's eased off since children came along. It's definitely eased off. But I have no regrets. There's no point. And sometimes I look at my peers and what people I went to university with and what they do and, you know, and they've got some of them have got have fantastic jobs, fantastic careers. So when you say fantastic, know, so big, big money.

But I look back and think I wouldn't change it that, you know, for the life that I've sort of had in the travel industry, % I wouldn't change it.

Jason Elkins (31:24.239)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (31:32.015)
You know, you said something really revealing there for me anyway, when you said I met my wife while I was traveling and we traveled together. I think that that's me. So maybe she's got a little bit that common interest or common set of values. And I think that if you're fortunate enough to, to have people in your life that you care about that enjoy that about you and they, they encourage you to go do that. Then it's fine. If you're in

Simon Grove (31:39.812)
Yeah.

Simon Grove (31:46.896)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (32:00.729)
relationships with people that don't understand your desire to go and are frustrated by your desire to go and they don't want to go so you get frustrated because you can't go and they don't want to go with you. I think those are probably the moments in my life when I was like, I wish I was normal. Because then it just be so much easier. But you're right. I don't wish I was normal. I just wish I would. I just wish that the people in my life had similar interests. I guess that's the answer. There's a lesson there for

Simon Grove (32:08.517)
Yeah.

Simon Grove (32:14.542)
Yeah, no, I think I was very lucky actually, yeah.

Simon Grove (32:23.768)
Yeah, and I think think I think that was lucky, you know, yeah, it leveled me as well. was, you know, somebody wants to travel, wants to go. So, yeah, and it was, you know, me being involved in travel, I was like, we go here, we'll do this or we can put this, I'll put it together. she was, yeah, yeah, you know, was because wherever we go, we will go. She was happy with or happy with them. It was funny.

Jason Elkins (32:42.533)
That's so cool. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, when I was young, I knew I I've had this bug my whole life and I knew I had this bug and I'd meet people, especially, know, if there was a romantic interest. The first thing I'd say is, hey, I'm going to I'm going to go traveling. I'm going to be traveling the world. If you want to go with me, this is great. You know, da da da da da. OK, yeah, sure. Whatever. And then I'd fall in love and they didn't want to travel. So be careful. Anybody that's listening to this, that's.

Simon Grove (33:07.086)
Yeah, thankfully she did. Thankfully she did.

Jason Elkins (33:12.613)
That's, that's very cool. And what about what about your kids? Are they interested?

Simon Grove (33:18.374)
Yeah, they love it. The oldest one is 14 now, the youngest one is 11. I didn't think having kids would change me at all. said, it's never going to change me. And changed me massively, of course. From a person that was, we were aware as much as we could be, always overseas with the kids. We sort of eased off a bit. We actually, which something again, I really enjoyed, we discovered a lot of the UK.

Jason Elkins (33:35.045)
Mm-hmm.

Simon Grove (33:46.982)
So for family holidays, it's easy to pack up the car with what seems like the entire contents of your house and drive to another empty house that you stay at for a week. And so we spent a bit of time with the kids where we traveled around a lot of Wales, found places that we would have never have found again. If we hadn't had the kids and hadn't done that, we found places, some places that are magical that we.

We actually, we go back to every year for a week, every year as part of sort of you know, the growth family travel. then as we sort of hit COVID, which wasn't the greatest years for obviously to travel. But since then, you know, we go away sort of every year on a, probably a relatively big holiday and the kids, they just love it. I mean, they love, but they have the love of trying new things, new experiences, you know, seeing things that are different. So we travel in a style of...

You know, we've never gone away on as a family on a package holiday where we booked into a hotel and had a week at a beach. It's it's it's always been on an active holiday. It's always been doing things. And yeah, you know, it's given them a love for the world and not just a love for the world, but I think it gives you, know, I'd also I also say about me that traveling also gives you a real understanding, I think of, know, of of how the world works. And I think it can make you more compassionate. I think it makes you more it can make you more.

You know, you can understand, can, you know, you can sympathize with things more. You also see, which I think I've been really, really lucky, that probably some of the most, you know, vilified places, perhaps in the press, or what we read about as some of the nicest places that you can go to, some of the nicest, best people you will ever meet. you know, I think that's, you know, it's made me much more leveled, measured person being able to travel and I want them to do the same.

Jason Elkins (35:41.143)
It kind of challenges some of the, thoughts and ideas that people can pick up in regular society. You know, if you're in the States or UK and you never really go anywhere, you don't meet people, you believe kind of whatever you see on the news. And I noticed, you know, as I traveled, I mean, I mentioned I'm in Columbia. I've spent a lot of time in Columbia. Anybody who listened to the show very often knows I'm here a lot. And that's a place that when I was growing up, there was nothing positive about Columbia on the news and.

Simon Grove (36:02.212)
Yeah.

Simon Grove (36:07.726)
No.

Jason Elkins (36:10.853)
And when I even to the, you even recently three years ago when I told my parents, you know, I was going to take off and go do the full-time traveling thing and I was going to start in Columbia. man. They almost said, no, I mean, there was a little bit more of that, like not supportive side of that's a horrible choice. Why would you go there? And immediately fell in love with the place. Yeah. And now, you know, and now my dad's starting to warm up. He's like, well, maybe I'll come visit you down there. And it's,

Simon Grove (36:21.786)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Grove (36:37.37)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (36:39.321)
But you're right. just, challenges your, your preconceived ideas or last summer, actually, when I started doing the podcast, I was in Southeast Asia and was spending some time in, both Indonesia and Malaysia. And I'd never been to, you know, predominantly Muslim country. And you can't grow up in the U S and not go to Muslim countries without developing some kind of, you know, rhetoric or ideas of, whatever it might be like. And.

Simon Grove (36:41.828)
Thanks.

Simon Grove (36:55.922)
Yeah.

Simon Grove (37:01.483)
Yeah

Jason Elkins (37:05.989)
It was, it was just amazing. The people were so amazing. and that was just my, you'd, you'd had a more experience with that in the past, but I was, it just opened my world and really it's a big part of why it's called big world made small. Cause I was there when I came up with this idea and it was like, wow, my world just got so much smaller because, because of that experience. And I just think that's, it's huge for kids to help them do that. So if we were, maybe you don't want to do this, maybe you don't want to play this game, but if you had.

Simon Grove (37:18.854)
Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Grove (37:33.563)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (37:35.605)
If you were to guess if any of your children would end up working in the adventure travel business or the this this type of business, could you could you see that happening? I want to make any predictions that when they're listening to this in a few years, they figure out if dad was right or wrong.

Simon Grove (37:46.402)
and

Simon Grove (37:49.996)
Yeah, I think I could. think I could see. think I could probably see the oldest. He, again, he's like a clone of me in many ways. you know, it's I think, you know, for me to lead and gave me confidence that perhaps I didn't have, it gives you a persona. You know, I've watched him when we've it's funny when we go on holiday and he's quite, he's quite.

He's quite shy. He's often on the edge of things. When we go on holiday, he organizes the other kids. We've done, you know, we've traveled in family group holidays and he's organizing the kids. you say, yeah, I think there's a little leader in the making here, a little tour leader. And he likes to show people things. you know, it's a good pathway into travel. I would actually love both of my kids to do a season of either tour leading or a ski season where they work in that sort of, in the hospitality, you know, be the hospitality industry, the tourism industry.

I it gives you, I think it teaches you a lot of skills that you wouldn't get anywhere else. When I did my tour lead, dealing with people, dealing with conflict, was a very, very steep learning curve, but it was skills which I developed, which have been, again, invaluable in working career.

Jason Elkins (39:09.957)
I agree with you on a percent. think that if you can be a tour leader for one season, maybe more, but if you can do that for one season, you're just on the, you just hit the ground running when you show up in any sort of any situation where you're dealing with people, because anybody that's never been a tour leader or never been on a tour might not know this, but when you're with groups like that, things, things come up and you're, you're

Simon Grove (39:16.264)
Yeah.

Simon Grove (39:21.712)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (39:34.821)
You know, managing so many different personalities and getting people to feel included when maybe they're obnoxious, but, you know, you've got to figure out ways to, to work through these things. And, you know, public speaking, I remember one of the gentlemen I interviewed on here was he'd said he was kind of the more reserved type. think I know it was, but I don't want to mention my name in case I'm wrong. I don't want to be wrong, but he was kind of reserved, quiet type ended up.

Simon Grove (39:42.54)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (40:03.461)
going along in some sort of support role on I think an overland type trip in Africa. And at some point they're like, okay, it's it's your turn to give the, the briefing. I don't know if it was through the day a new group, I don't remember what it was, but he was terrified. And he got it all figured out. And then he did it in front of the group. And that was the moment when he realized he was going to work in the tourism industry the rest of his life was out that that one, you know, that guide briefing for the clients or whatever. And it was like,

Simon Grove (40:16.166)
Hmm.

Simon Grove (40:27.29)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (40:33.345)
you know, and because he'd never felt so confident. He just did it and they were excited to hear it. And he just he's like, this feels amazing. So it's it can open up a lot of things for people.

Simon Grove (40:41.237)
It's a bit like it's a bit like almost it's a bit like you have a you have an alter ego a different personality that you know, because I probably said I was quite quiet and reserved and then you know, some somebody actually said to me before I started to lead them I met another tour leader just by chance sort of in my hometown. said, yeah, he said when I'm here, he said I'm just a normal, plain, simple sort of chap. He said when you're tour lead, he said you just change it and everybody, you know.

Most people want to have a good holiday, so that's a good start. But people listen to you and you find yourself, you know, I'm thinking, for me, I'm thinking, I you know, I went to Leicester Poly, Leicester Poly, Leicester University, did an audit degree in biology and law. then I did two years where I didn't do an awful lot of jobs and I traveled, but I'm stood here now and I'm telling people that perhaps somebody who's perhaps a chief executive of a multi-million pound company, what we're gonna do for the day.

You know, and it's this and then at night you're sort of sat around the table and, you know, there was times when, you know, with the groups you sat around and you realize that that whole social sphere that's there, but you know, you're talking to somebody who's perhaps, you know, one of the most eminent surgeons in the category in the country that people know because of what he's done. And the other end of the table, there's somebody who was a bricklayer, know, from a completely different social background. And I used to love that about the two of them, the one bringing them all together.

but actually leading these people and also knowing that you have the trust. know, it's a big thing to know that, you know, have to earn the trust and respect of the group. But it was such a good feeling, you know, to be leading a group where, you know, you led them, they all gelled, they all had a brilliant time. was, yeah, it was, as I said at the beginning, I think it's the best job I've ever done. It's also the hardest when it goes wrong at times, but it really, really is the best job.

Jason Elkins (42:31.525)
Yeah

I think I heard you say it and I heard you say it. I don't know if you said it, but I heard it in my head because it resonated. I remember when I was leading trips and even just day trips, you whether I was a fishing guide in Montana for a while or I was, you know, managing a lodge, we'd get done with the week and we'd send the guests home or if I was leading a departure somewhere. Interestingly enough, I would say I enjoyed all of it. Well, not all of it. You know, I'm human.

Simon Grove (42:38.97)
Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Grove (42:46.776)
hm hm hm hm.

Simon Grove (43:01.614)
Yeah, most of it.

Jason Elkins (43:03.833)
But for some reason, when I would get that hormonal dopamine, I don't know what it was, that maybe it's oxytocin or whatever was actually at the end of the tour. When it's like, okay, when I say goodbye to them at the airport, we give the hugs and they get on their planes and I go to my gate to wait for my flight for some reason is when I always got the rush. Did you experience that?

Simon Grove (43:09.744)
Heh heh.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Simon Grove (43:26.532)
Yeah, yeah, I did. I did. I'd get them. Yeah, the end of a trip where you know it's gone really well, it was when I led to is it was a really it was, you know, you wouldn't be at end of the trip. You get another group. So often you would be your next group would have arrived before your last ones left because the plane comes in, it drops off a group of people and then you see the other people through, you know, the bye bye. They all go. So you would have this real.

Jason Elkins (43:54.765)
So you got to get your, yeah.

Simon Grove (43:55.746)
a real rush, but you get this real rush of this has been amazing. It's been brilliant. I've loved it. Wow. You know, you know, we've achieved so much. And I think, you know, we used to collect in paper questionnaires. So if you have a little sneak of your paper questionnaires and you know, you've done very well in that, you know, you think, yeah, this is amazing. And then you think, right, you know, we've got through that right, right. It's starting again with a bunch of people. And again, that was, it was like it was too highs, really. It was too real highs.

Jason Elkins (44:09.955)
Yeah. Yep.

Jason Elkins (44:24.665)
Yeah, it's I remember I think early on when I first become aware of how good I felt at the end of a trip, I questioned myself. I'm like, what's wrong? Why do I feel so good when it's over? Is that because I didn't enjoy it and I'm happy it's over? Because that's normally normally when you go to a job and you're finished with the job and you feel like, thank goodness it's over. It is a thank goodness it's over. But with me, with the tourism, it was always like, thank goodness it went well. Thank goodness they're happy. Thank goodness that

Simon Grove (44:30.63)
.

Simon Grove (44:39.046)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Simon Grove (44:46.532)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Grove (44:53.028)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (44:54.671)
they're going to go home and they're going to remember this stuff. You know, they're going to remember these things that I was part of, part of being involved in. And as soon as I realized that that's what it was about it, it was a lot better or reading or reading reviews. You know, I used to, if I was, there was a period in my life where, I wasn't able to go do some of the stuff I wanted to do, but I'd had a balloon ride business a few years earlier and I had a lot of great reviews on the balloon ride business and TripAdvisor. And whenever I was

Simon Grove (45:00.186)
Yeah.

Simon Grove (45:03.989)
Yeah, and I think again, yeah.

Simon Grove (45:18.736)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (45:23.417)
feeling kind of down and bored and feeling like I couldn't go do what I want to do. I'd sometimes pull up DripAdvisor and sit there and read through my reviews and it would just come right back to me.

Simon Grove (45:30.938)
Yeah, I think again, you never lose that sort of, I mean, it's like a drug, what a leader brings you, that sort of, you know, and sometimes again, to take a back a step or a forward a step, people arriving at the airport, the other thing which I really sort of, I grew to really enjoy, and I would say at Explore, there was some fantastic leader training before I did it, we went through, it was, you know, leaders.

Jason Elkins (45:44.515)
Yep.

Simon Grove (46:00.058)
go through a best stage went through an awful lot before a real intense training beforehand. And you know, one of the, one of the, one of the things, know, we were told was never judge the book by the cover, you know, never judge people on the first appearances. And again, where I see you take this into later life, but I learned so many times on day one, somebody that could be irritating, rude, you know, emotional, you know, sometimes when we, in the old days on these to fly to India, they went via the Gulf States, you know,

three different aircraft get this out and you're tired the luggage isn't there you know and it's the time difference and you know you'd learn you know that actually how they behave on day one is my job as a leader you know I've got to draw them in and the other side was the people that often really really quiet and again I think what you said about that hit at the end of the trip you know there's people on the trip that are really quiet and perhaps a little bit withdrawn and bringing them in

to be part of the group and watching them develop. And again, the phrase, you use a few times of life changing, you think of times and it was, you know, it was, it's a really good part to feel as though that you've, you've, you've, potentially changed people's lives. Cause I would say for tour leading. And again, it was a question I used to ask many leaders when I did the interview and you know, what do you want to tour lead for? And anyone that said travel and you would say anything else. And then, you know, I just want to travel. You you, would not get in a job because

Jason Elkins (47:19.76)
you

Simon Grove (47:23.6)
I think you do it for sort of almost the old fashioned, it's customer service. It's about, you know, leading people in the customer service and the travel is the environment that you do it in. And it's the big plus, but anyone that just went into two elite to travel would be a disaster.

Jason Elkins (47:36.505)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (47:40.217)
I think after several years, at one point I had some opportunities to kind of reflect on, figure out, well, what are my personal values? And, you know, probably in a coaching program. And I came to this conclusion that I should have figured out a lot sooner that my highest value is shared experiences. And that could look like a lot of different things, but shared experiences. And that's what leading a group.

Simon Grove (47:50.458)
Yeah.

Simon Grove (47:59.494)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (48:06.851)
doing any sort of any of this type of trial, it could be shared experience, even if I go with a friend. And we just travel together or if I'm leading a group. But it's that that's why I enjoyed being a fly fishing guide. It wasn't the fly fishing. It was not the I mean, I like to fly fish. I'm a very good fly fisherman. But it was like I was always happier watching someone else catch a fish than if I had got the fish, you know, and just that that that

Simon Grove (48:17.968)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (48:34.181)
like, holy cow, how lucky am I that I get to be here when this person is so excited about a place that I brought them the same thing and I had a hot air balloon ride business. used to have a lot of couples get engaged on the balloon. You know, I'd take two people up and go five, 10,000 feet in the air and he'd pull out a ring and slide it on her finger. I'm like, wow, how cool is this that I get to be a part of this? And I think that that's what that's an important thing for anybody who wants to be a tour leader, a guide. If they don't

Simon Grove (48:40.036)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Simon Grove (48:55.821)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (49:03.703)
enjoy shared if that doesn't mean anything to them. I just can't imagine why they could be or how they could either be successful or happy doing it.

Simon Grove (49:05.334)
Yeah.

Simon Grove (49:11.142)
I think it could be the worst job in the world. think if you haven't got that element in you, just you see you just do for the travel. It's it's, you know, the downsides of tour leading and be very lonely or away from home and all for a long time. You live out of a bag and not to have that what that love and desire of of shared experiences want to be with people, you know, and and and also show people, you know, show people things that they would never see by themselves, you know, that they would never have experiences, you know, and I go back and I.

I used to bore everybody's senses in the office about some of the stories you would say. But, you know, I led for a long time in Egypt. I was in Egypt for a long time. And there was things that, you know, when you were there, people would remember some of the experiences we had in Egypt rather than the pyramids. I'd say, you know, if you ask me, what's your highlight in Egypt? We used to do something where I went to Luxor Bazaar with them and the Luxor Bazaar, you sort of turn right. And it's the real touristy part of the Bazaar, which was probably not my favorite place in the world.

Jason Elkins (50:08.579)
Mm-hmm.

Simon Grove (50:09.766)
You turn left and you you woke up and said, people go, what are we going to pay for? There's like, you know, there's plastic buckets and wire wall and, you know, and then cloth and, you know, soap and then this is the local bizarre. you still always had this to do this every, every two weeks. And I did this, I'd stop at a place that was them. They selling sugar cane drinks and you would have, you know, 18 people or 24, I think the groups were there. they're saying, so does anybody ever tried sugar cane? And no, no, no. And it was the old washing machine mangos what they had. So you had a.

a long length of sugar cane, you put the sugar cane in the mangle, know, turn it round and the juice would come out. And, know, I'd get one glass of sugar cane drink and then, you know, you had straws, thankfully. And then you'd think, no, no, no, we don't want do that. And then it would just say that one person, somebody's going to try it. Come on, I bought this for you, Lord. And, you know, someone would try it. Yeah, yeah. Then somebody else. And then then you wait 24 sugar canes, please, as everybody does it. And it's just them pushing their own personal boundaries as well.

Jason Elkins (50:39.983)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (50:58.318)
Mm-hmm.

Simon Grove (51:07.77)
But at the end of the trip, know, we were on the trip, so you know, it was that, and it's not about the drink per se, but it's about pushing boundaries and doing something that would never have done taking them out of the comfort zone. you know, after about five or six days in Egypt, traveling around, you know, it was hot. I worked my first season in Egypt. I worked there through the summer and it was hot and sugar cane was an amazing way to sort of refresh yourself. But you you come across.

the people will be saying, yeah, no, I'll have a sugar cane drink, please. You know, we're not, we're not tourists. We're like the local, no, you are tourists, but you know, they didn't, they didn't want, they wanted to be different. They wanted to be seen to be different because we're having the locals drinking. It's, it's, a, it's a very small thing, but it's always lived with me that, you know, how you can get 24 people, know, if you'd said to them before, you're going to drink in this place, you're going to have it and you're going to like it. No, no, no, we're not going to do that. And it's that, you know, it's that, that, that's it.

Jason Elkins (51:55.301)
Mm-hmm.

Simon Grove (51:57.166)
You know, they had to want to do it eventually, but you encourage them, you facilitate it, you make it, and then a little bit of peer pressure perhaps, as one does it, but they all do it, and then they all think, yeah, and some people probably don't like it, but some people at least have done it.

Jason Elkins (52:11.461)
Do you think that, I don't know how you would measure it. You probably have measured this because you know the stuff is when you've got these group departures, the person that signs up for a group departure, how does the importance of meeting other travelers and connecting with other travelers, is that super important? Are they doing it more because the dates work and the price works? I how important is the, I'm going to...

Simon Grove (52:17.925)
Heh heh.

Hmm.

Jason Elkins (52:37.177)
be with a group of like-minded people, make some friends and experience things together. Is that important?

Simon Grove (52:42.246)
I think it's massive. think it's really big. think it's been in the of the group travel market. The one thing that the internet or artificial intelligence can't provide is a group. A group isn't going to appear there. I think it's more the outliers, the individuals. And occasionally it depends where the trip is. There's perhaps some places where I've led trips before where

The only way you can really do it is on a group trip. So you might get one, one or two people. Yeah, we wanted to come here and this is the only way we can do it. But I would say 95 % of people, it's a big part of what they do. And it's, it's like, again, it's what you said, it's shared experiences, is meeting people from walks of life who you would never normally meet in your social center line and just, just having fun, know, having a good time. think, you know, sometimes, you know, travel can be seen as, you know, quite heavy.

Sorrowful, know, it's culture. It's horrible. We do this because I put but ultimately it's everybody at night perhaps around the campfire somewhere having a drink and just just laughing and just having fun. It's yeah, it's it's I would I also think there's sometimes a bit of a stigma about group travel, you know, sometimes people can look at it and think, you know, we we'd much rather do it independently. You know, it's better than group travel. I don't I know there's companies that can organize trips for you, but I would say with a leader you will see and do things like you would.

you would not be able to do if you just did it yourself. You get access and gateways to things which are, it a local restaurant that's just opened up, that's magical, a homestay, you can't do that yourself.

Jason Elkins (54:25.025)
I agree completely and you give kind of two ends of the spectrum there one is kind of the independent travel the other is the group with a leader and then of course we have you know the guided private so maybe you've got a couple and they've got a guide that hangs out with them for a week or two or whatever traveling around so I think a lot of companies may make the argument obviously with a leader or guide or somebody that's got access and knows things you can see other things but when you go between a private guided and a group guided

Simon Grove (54:29.637)
Yeah.

Simon Grove (54:45.159)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (54:52.621)
And I'm not even sure I'm using the same terminology you guys would use. that's where you've got the other travelers that you were talking about that you don't know that come from a variety of backgrounds. And it's almost I don't know if this I guess what comes up for me is like, if you've got 10 people in a group, you've got 10 interpretations of the same experience. And if you can share that and connect on that level,

Simon Grove (54:54.485)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (55:19.265)
It almost like it multiplies your experience, I guess, is where I'm trying to go with this. So I've got my experience like I know what I experienced on this safari. But I'm looking at Mary here who is from Michigan and is an accountant in Michigan. And I'm watching her experience of the same safari. And I'm noticing, you know, and I'm kind of picking up some of her experience. And then Bob and Bill and all these people around me, I'm picking up a little bit of their experience.

Simon Grove (55:42.374)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (55:47.555)
So now I've like taken my my experience and you know, maybe three, four or five exit. I don't know. What do you think? That's a good theory, right?

Simon Grove (55:51.846)
Yeah, I think Safari is a really good example. I was on Safari last year, we took the kids on a group tour of Safari, and one of the girls on the trip was obsessed with giraffe. She just wanted to see a giraffe. And the first time she saw a giraffe, and then everybody, everybody, so I'm.

giraffe I can take or leave them. I like them but they're not my favorite animal necessarily but you find yourself looking for giraffe for zooey and you know and that kind of thing and I think yeah I agree I think that whole experience and seeing what other people you'll get it's it's all part of the group experience that brings you around to the end of the day where you sat around the fire or sat around the table or in the bar or in the restaurant and you're talking and it's you know it's yeah it's it's it's an experience if you if you haven't done it I'd say if you haven't done a group holiday

Jason Elkins (56:22.647)
yeah, yeah.

Jason Elkins (56:41.285)
I love.

Simon Grove (56:44.934)
you almost in many ways don't know what you're missing because it's something which is quite hard to articulate what that is of, you know, 16 people coming together that didn't necessarily know each other and just having shared experiences, different interpretations, and it's magical.

Jason Elkins (57:03.791)
And along those same lines, I'm thinking, you know, because I've guided just private individual, you know, private couples and I've guided, you know, led big group trips. And what I noticed when you've got a small, you know, let's just say it's a couple, they kind of make pretty clear early on what they're into. So Safari, you know, back to Safari as an example, or into lions or big animals, we really are just interested in big animals, we want to see the big five, whatever, whatever. And the guide.

Simon Grove (57:09.734)
.

Jason Elkins (57:33.675)
Most guides would just say, OK, I'm going to take you. We're going to go look for the big five. When you've got a group with a variety of interests and maybe there's a couple there that, you know, I'm really into botany or I'm really into the bugs or I'm into this or I'm into that. And if you've got a good guide, a good trip leader, they're able to incorporate that kind of for everybody. So everybody kind of gets a little bit of what they want. But then what happens is the couple that thought they were only in the big, big lions or big animals.

Simon Grove (58:01.933)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (58:03.043)
now of a sudden are intrigued by, I don't know, the culture or the insects or the spiders or whatever. And it just kind of opens the world, doesn't it? So there's a lot of reasons. I'm happy this conversation came up. That's cool.

Simon Grove (58:07.536)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Simon Grove (58:16.058)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I also, you know, as a person, I would travel independently. I've traveled with private guide before. I think in many ways travel is, I think it's bit of, say in the UK, it's horses for courses, you know, you choose at that moment in time, what's the right thing and the best thing for you, you know, as a family, we've traveled independently, but we've also, you know, we've also traveled as a group, we'll continue. I think it's the mix and match of everything, isn't it?

You know, I think sometimes you get people that just want to do group trips and we just want to do and it can be, you know, you've got other people that one day they'll do a group trip. One day they'll have to do private guide. They'll then fly themselves independently. And I think it's, it's choosing the destination and you know, I I would probably take my kids to India and I've spent a lot of time in India and we would probably go as a family and travel around, you know, get a drive a private and then travel around a bit. So you want to show them again. so it's, yeah, it's, think, I think we,

Again, for the group holiday, it goes back to your earlier question of what percentage of people are also on the holiday that really want to the group holiday. And I think actually, I've just thought this as we've gone through this, but the reason we book the group holiday is as much for the group experience as the destination, because we actually like that and the kids like it. And the group holidays, especially we've done with the kids, everyone's been of the same ilk. We've talked about that, you've just been talking. We met a family in South Africa.

Jason Elkins (59:32.09)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (59:36.217)
Yeah, that's cool.

Simon Grove (59:44.618)
on the next motor they came to Thailand with us this year and we just talked about where we're going to go next year and you know, they're the general messages also. We don't care where we go. Just let's just get a group together and we'll just go somewhere. So yeah, it's the experience the group experience.

Jason Elkins (59:56.804)
Yeah.

And it's different enough. as you were saying, I was thinking, and you might have somebody that only does group trips that may benefit. You know, I would invite them to consider maybe trying to do an independent travel, you know, because it's all different. You can learn a lot doing independent travel as well. It can be a big confidence builder or private guided or whatever. So I think that that's a...

Simon Grove (01:00:11.962)
Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Grove (01:00:22.82)
Yeah. And I think the right group trip again, going back to my leading days, one of the real buzzes I also got was sort of sometimes just give giving people a free evening and seeing where and encouraging them. This is what I'd recommend, but go and do your own thing and actually saying to them, look, guys, I would eat out with the group every night. I used to love it. You know, and you know, most I'll do it. But some nights I've actually got a free afternoon where you can do your own thing, you know.

get together and go and find and do some exploration. think, you again, on a good group trip, that's you, you know, was my sort of my role to give people the confidence to be able to eat in, you know, a shack type restaurant in India. But then, you know, you have the next night, say, right, guys, you go out and you do the same. And again, they would come back and then, know, invariably, you know.

It was it was was was something which is really special to them because we went out. We always we found the rest of it you know, it was better than yours. I wasn't quite as good as yours, but we love this and we did that. And somebody came and spoke to us and, you know, someone offered us a lift home and we had it. Yeah, you know, it's about and sometimes I think from from a group point, it is also perhaps if you're not if perhaps if you're not a confident traveler, it's a good way to get you into traveling. But actually, you can build your confidence on the trip and then might decide, you know, I can do this myself. I'm to do this. It's a yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:01:19.723)
Hahaha.

Jason Elkins (01:01:42.361)
Yeah, that's great because then they're getting as opposed to because I could see some tour operators or some guides are like, I got to take care of them every minute from the time that I see them until they get on the plane and leave. And I'm going to control everything. you. But what you just described is that's that's more valuable to the traveler, because because frankly, if you send a group of guests, not send a group, if you give a group of guests some time,

Simon Grove (01:01:52.048)
Hmm. Hmm.

Hmm.

Jason Elkins (01:02:12.569)
to go explore on their own and to create some connections without you. It actually adds a lot of value because there's adrenaline, you know, they're like when they're with the guide, they're like, okay, I don't have to worry about anything. But now the guides not here. Now we got to figure out how to get to the restaurant or how to order the food or how to do this or how to do that, which creates that, you know, you step outside the comfort zone a little bit when anytime you growth is what happens on the other side of comfort, right? And

Simon Grove (01:02:25.964)
Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm.

Jason Elkins (01:02:39.137)
and you get those that dopamine or that adrenaline and then you come back and you're like, wow, wasn't that cool? Like you were just describing. I think that's brilliant. So yeah, I like that.

Simon Grove (01:02:45.03)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do you know what somebody wants one night? Because again, you know, group travel, it can also be claustrophobic. You you spend a lot of time together. And if that one night, you know, always say if somebody wants to go to McDonald's and get a burger by themselves and then do it, you know, it's your holiday, it's your travel, you know. Yeah. And just, know, you know.

Jason Elkins (01:02:54.205)
you

Jason Elkins (01:03:00.835)
which might be an adventure too, right? For some people, maybe they want to go to McDonald's in Kathmandu. Well, I probably don't have one there, but.

Simon Grove (01:03:07.09)
Yeah, yeah, you know when we I was in Thailand this some with the kids here and then we had a couple of McDonald's stops just you know, it worked well at the time as I just you know, I can't do any more pad Thai I just got my can have a McDonald's and and actually you come out of the McDonald's it's really different from the English McDonald's isn't it? And they know it was a me and you didn't you talk about that much you little thing that you talk about Well, you know McDonald's in Thailand is actually quite expensive

it relatively. So you talk about the different kinds of people who would go there and why they wouldn't, you know, and actually it's probably, you know, a bit more expensive than McDonald's in England and you'd be talking. So again, everything is an edge. Everything is about learning as well, isn't it? And, and taking that, but yeah, I I think again, I, I wasn't naively nothing. It's good for people to have a little bit of time as well. Even if you say you want to have a sandwich in your hotel room, then it's your holiday. That's what you should do one night.

Jason Elkins (01:03:35.927)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:03:47.045)
it

I love.

Jason Elkins (01:04:01.699)
Yeah. So I just had a moment of, guess empathy for my son. He's been traveling with me the last few summers and, we were over in Malaysia and Thailand and he's like, I just want McDonald's. just want McDonald's. No, you can't have McDonald's. We're on Penang Island in Malaysia, you know, some of the best food in the world. And he wants to go to McDonald's and I just refuse. I was not going to take him to McDonald's. So I'm imagining him as kind of like a.

Simon Grove (01:04:05.87)
Yeah.

Simon Grove (01:04:15.28)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Grove (01:04:24.442)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:04:31.031)
a client on a group trip and I'm the guide and I'm like, no, I don't care if you want to do that. This we're not going to do that. And he was, he was so upset and I was like, I'm not taking it with Donald's. he says, well, I'm not going to go with that. And I'm like, okay, fine. And I left him in the room and I went to McDonald's cause I was stressed out and I just wanted the comfort food of McDonald's. It's just me thinking I'm in charge. I'm your father, you know, but

Simon Grove (01:04:32.88)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Grove (01:04:44.678)
Yeah.

Simon Grove (01:04:48.572)
Yeah.

Simon Grove (01:04:55.684)
Yeah.

yeah but I say it's again it's it's the way of the world now isn't it and sometimes it's if it's what the one thing as well it's it's yeah that's what you want that's what that's what you can have I'm certainly not doing it every night we're not doing it every day but every now and then every now and then and then you can tell everybody where we went yeah yeah well I'm not so sure about that but it's wise yeah yeah it's I'm not sure but it's again some

Jason Elkins (01:05:00.215)
Anyway, so...

Jason Elkins (01:05:15.151)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:05:20.421)
Well, that's good parenting advice. I need to calm down a little bit.

Simon Grove (01:05:28.517)
Yeah, we have one of the one of our kids is one will eat anything and the other one is a bit more choosy what he eats. So every now and then you think at least at least I know he's eating something.

Jason Elkins (01:05:39.589)
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's true. Well, unfortunately, my kid though, he flips and flops because ordinarily, if we go to a nicer restaurant, he wants to order the most expensive thing, you he wants the oysters, he wants the stuff that usually the waitresses will look at him and say, Are you sure? And then we're in Penang. He wants McDonald's. like, I'm gonna kill them. But anyway,

Simon Grove (01:05:48.656)
Yeah. yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah.

Simon Grove (01:05:58.694)
Yeah, that's wrong. I think you were right in that circumstance. I'll just tell you a little something about my youngest when we went away then. He's not particularly great. He wasn't and he was five when we went on our first overseas trip and we delayed a little bit because we know he's a nightmare to eat overseas. We went to Turkey and we got to Turkey and just I think there was a buffet there and I came out with, he eats bread, we know he eats bread and I came out with a basket of bread and said, there's some bread.

he looked at me he's like looking at me said Max you're really gonna like Turkish bread and he just looked at me and he had like a taste of it, I don't like Turkish bread so I said right I'll go get you so I picked up the bread basket I walked back in the buffet around the table came out with the same bread basket and said he's giving you some English bread just for you and he's like I like this is good this is good so so every day every day

I had to go for two weeks. I had to go and get his breakfast because he would look at me and there's only Turkish bread. I'll get you, that's the man, he'll bring you some English bread.

Jason Elkins (01:06:54.714)
Yep.

Jason Elkins (01:07:05.785)
You know what you sound like a good tour leader because I could see you doing that with clients too. I think you've learned these skills. That's that sounds exactly like you know people people ask for things you know. I remember we have clients come to the place in Belize and we had one guy that just really wanted guacamole and there's like it. Belize is not like Mexico. We don't have you know avocados everywhere. I don't remember how we resolved it but.

Simon Grove (01:07:09.997)
Alright, 100%, 100%, 100%.

Simon Grove (01:07:25.509)
Yeah.

Simon Grove (01:07:30.277)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:07:35.801)
We managed to convince him that we had something much better, knowing damn well that we weren't going to be able to. Like I know I cannot get him guacamole, so I'm going to figure out how to make him even happier that we've got something better. So anyway, it's I don't want to compare.

Simon Grove (01:07:38.535)
It's amazing what you can do isn't it? Yeah it's amazing what you can do.

Simon Grove (01:07:48.967)
Yeah, yeah, this is my yeah. And again, that is again, it's the power of tour leading, isn't it? You know, that position that you've gotten people, you know, it's, it's, it's almost a very privileged role to be in as well. Because you know, what you can, you know, that we can tell persuade people to do, but people will, you know, it's, it's people listen to you and people believe you and people, you know, sort of accept you for what you say, which is brilliant.

Jason Elkins (01:08:13.891)
Because, I guess the psychology behind it is on some level, they are very dependent on you, because they're in a place that they don't know. Maybe they feel some level of dependence on you that almost creates a situation where they kind of have to trust you. Because if they don't trust you, then that creates a cognitive dissonance where if I don't, it's like parents and children, right? Children sometimes will go along with things that their parents do, even when it's bad because

Simon Grove (01:08:22.374)
Mm-hmm.

Thank

Simon Grove (01:08:38.468)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:08:43.813)
Yeah, it's interesting that the whole psychology I'm sure you've are aware of all that. So I we've discussed a lot of things we did not. I'm not sure we got where you wanted to go about some of the things you want to discuss. So I'm curious, what did I forget to ask you? What should I've asked you? Or what would you like to touch on either about yourself kind of what you're doing with your, your current, your current role helping other tour operators? Love to hear a little bit about that and anything else that you'd like to touch on before we wrap it up.

Simon Grove (01:09:12.166)
I think I could talk all night. I've really, really enjoyed it is the first thing to say. It's been a real pleasure to be on. I've really enjoyed it. Yeah, thanks. And, you know, for myself, I think probably, you know, what it's it's also self-reflective when you do things like this and you look back and you've you've you've sort of made me look back at what you went into travel for and your support from your parents and what happened to you. it is it is very self-reflective. And I would say that I've, know, you look back on what has been.

Jason Elkins (01:09:15.685)
I know, it's fun,

Simon Grove (01:09:40.614)
You know, so far, an incredible career in an incredible industry, you something that I've really enjoyed. You know, you look back with, you know, very few, if any regrets on on it. And, you know, I'd be I would be happy if my children, you know, went into travel and had sort of the life that I've had leading travel and, you know, and the pleasure that it's given me. And I think, you know, from my perspective now, you know, I've never, you know, I've never really changed. But I'd say whatever role, you know,

but eventually was product director and explore. But what I've always, always passionately believed in is ultimately back to those two leading days that, know, you just want to give people the best experience you possibly can. And that best experience is introducing them to a country, you know, breaking down barriers, understanding people better. And again, that's the function of what I do now. So I've got my own sort of business where I talk to sort of the overseas partners that want to, you know, really work and bring people to their countries.

And I help them break down the barriers as to, know, necessarily break down the barriers just to get people there, but to really talk to them about this is what you've got to do when you've got people there. This is what people want. And, you know, I think so often there is a bit of slight disconnect between what people perceive is wanted and what is actually wanted. So I help them break down those barriers so that when, when they do sort of get the business and, you know, a lot, a lot, a lot of the travel business now is that there's a lot of legislation, there's a lot of boxes to be gone through to be ticked to make sure it's right. So help them with that.

But ultimately, that ultimate goal of where you get people that actually had the most amazing holiday that they could ever have again, wanted to be like, you know, a life, a life that can't be life changing every time, but you you wanted to be something that they they will always remember the holiday that they've had for the right reasons.

Jason Elkins (01:11:29.337)
Yeah, exactly. That's, that's a good point. And she's right. Maybe not every travel experience is life-changing, but a travel experience is an amazing place to create an opportunity for a life-changing experience. Right. If you just look at, I mean, the opportunity more than any other place, you know, it's hard to create a life-changing environment, a life-changing experience at a restaurant or a grocery store or a dentist office, or, know,

Simon Grove (01:11:41.861)
Yes. Yeah.

Simon Grove (01:11:51.024)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Grove (01:11:57.37)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:11:58.147)
many, many places, but on a trip to another country, you've got probably a better opportunity than most. So that's important.

Simon Grove (01:12:04.826)
Yeah. And I also think, know, something that you really like to stress. say, I talk about it and sort of life changing as a, you know, it's sort of a bit of hyperbole as well, which is, always good. But it's also, I think it's a real privilege to travel. And, you know, I'm lucky in many ways. I traveled when I did, I was in, you know, central Asia in the mid nineties, you know, Korea, when places, you know, lucky. And I think the world has changed, but it is a real, real privilege to travel as well. And I think, you know,

There's a lot of people in the world that, you know, we talked about some of the vilified countries, you know, that you would look in the press and think, people don't get the chance to travel, you know, there is no way they could experience what we can experience. I think, you know, it's I'm always very conscious of that whenever wherever I go, you know, I want my kids and the customers, it's a real privilege to be able to do that. And it's something that's always been a responsibility that I've taken very seriously.

Jason Elkins (01:13:05.605)
that you said a privilege and a responsibility because you're right, even as even as a tourist or somebody like myself traveling around Columbia, you know, there's a responsibility because I realize most of the people I meet could not pick up and go to the US, you know, and you get to be respond, you get to kind of just acknowledge that and be respectful and not, well, I've been here, I've been there, I've been there. Aren't I great? Yeah, that's that's you're not going to create connections like that. So

Simon Grove (01:13:19.28)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Simon Grove (01:13:29.2)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (01:13:35.169)
Why is point Simon? Thank you very much. I really this was a fascinating conversation I learned a lot and I just really enjoyed it so thank you so much for sharing your time with myself and our listeners and we've we're gonna have some some notes there under the show to help people figure out how to connect with you if they want to work on any projects with you or Anything at all, so thank you so much appreciate it

Simon Grove (01:13:57.99)
It's been a pleasure, thank you very much.